pointed boolits for hunting ?

[LAKEMASTER]

i know lead is soft and it seems wonderful for hunting, but would a spear point bullet be unethical for hunting ?


im looking at an NOE mold for distance loads for my 30-06, a couple friends asked me if we ( boolit casters ) use pointed bullets for hunting. i showed them my ranch dog bullets with a 0.253 dia metplate and 011401 style bullet.

the question got me thinking so now im asking.

[richhodg66]

If I were going to try it. I would use the BruceB soft pointing method described in the sticky on the subject. I think it would work fine then. It's tedious, but you'd only need a few.

[white eagle]

if I were going with a spire point bullet I would use a
full condom mass produced bullet of some manufacture
would not cast my own although I could
its a different game casting soft points and for me not worth the effort

[runfiverun]

that is the only way I would try it too.
the unsupported pointy noses are generally slow velocity type boolits because it is too easy to slump them back unevenly.
for hunting you need the nose to do the job of disrupting flesh and skin and creating internal radial wounding.
a pointy nose will just worm it's way through without that disruption.
if you disrupt that nose by making it mush up on contact you change it's profile and diameter.

[richhodg66]

The soft pointing thing isn't that difficult, but it is very slow and tedious, it will take you a long time to make very many. I did some with the RCBS 180 grain FP (which is probably unnecessary with that design) and did in fact get some with a seamless soft nose, you had to look very closely to see the difference in color. Haven't used them yet, but was looking to duplicate the original factory loading in the .303 Savage which these should do nicely.

I had actually been contemplating this lately. I've collected up all my Dad's stuff while moving my folks into assisted living. He never was a hunter, but an avid target shooter and I collected up a ton of cast bullets including a large quantity of 311467s he had cast which I will shoot up. Dad used a lot of linotype and cast these way harder than I usually do, but I have his molds and wondered if this design could work if soft pointed.

The truth is, I have plenty of flat nosed designs for .30s, so it's really not an issue for me and I would recommend to anyone who plans to hunt with cast to get an appropriate design.

[RU shooter]

IF your are good enough and patient enough to only take a head shot .

[dverna]

The Sierra Game King is my choice. I want full performance when hunting.

A spitzer cast bullet is not a good hunting bullet.

Don Verna

[Digital Dan]

i know lead is soft and it seems wonderful for hunting, but would a spear point bullet be unethical for hunting ?

You probably know this from legend, but there are a 1,000 ways to skin a cat, or so they say.

im looking at an NOE mold for distance loads for my 30-06, a couple friends asked me if we ( boolit casters ) use pointed bullets for hunting. i showed them my ranch dog bullets with a 0.253 dia metplate and 011401 style bullet.

OK, you're already looking at a mould...what distance are you contemplating?

the question got me thinking so now im asking.

Slumping can be an issue of course, but there are ways to mitigate that. A bore rider might be your friend, or paper patching. That pastime can open doors to higher velocity for a given alloy than is typical of grease groove bullets. Depends on how much fiddling you want to do and maybe how handy you are with your rifle.

I've done a couple of things in the last year which my reading of conventional wisdom says should not have worked. One was the Lyman 225438 of #2 alloy, Alox lubed and 2300 fps. 2" groups at 100 yards was a start. The other was a Lyman 311041, of a bit softer alloy at 2150 fps (est) and Alox lube. 5 shots in just over an inch with a Model 94 off the bags. I'm planning to push the envelope on both in the near future just out of curiosity.

Another thing you might contemplate, is just how much advantage might be expected with a typical jacketed spitzer of same weight as a cast flat point. It is probably less than you imagine, and an oblate round nose gives even less ground to the spitzer. Image below is a .30 cal, 183.5 grains and illustrates the nose form I refer too.

[Digital Dan]

To add a couple of things to consider:

BC is a variable in response to velocity change over a bullet's flight. Many folks look at the number and engrave it in stone. To do so is misleading.

Will throw some numbers your way for consideration.

Lyman 311467 is a Louvrin style bullet with a nose form not unlike that of those in the picture above. From the Lyman cast bullet load book the following numbers are indicated.

BC - .320
MV - 2500 fps
Wt.- 178 gr w/Lyman #2 alloy
100 yard zero (2257 fps) will present a drop of 21.32" and 300 yard velocity of 1741 fps

Lyman 31141

BC - .220
MV - 2500 fps
Wt. - 170 gr. w/ #2 alloy
100 yard zero (2131 fps) presents a drop of 24.16" @ 300 yards and 1559 fps

The 31141 has a flat nose if you aren't familiar. It yields a velocity advantage to the 311467 at 300 yards of 182 fps and 2.84" drop.

I don't personally see the drop difference to be significant. Perhaps the most telling aspect however should be viewed in 2 parts. Assuming your "distance" is 300 yards, give or take, will the combination of nose form and alloy expand at the respective impact velocities? This can be tested at close range with reduced loads. Question that follows, can you drive a suitable (sufficiently soft alloy) to those muzzle velocities and achieve acceptable accuracy?

I am of a mind that you can do this with paper patch bullets, and other approaches may work, but you'll have some homework and testing to sort out if you want to assure success.

For your information, the bullets pictured above are cast of 30:1 alloy (soft) and used solely for close range work at subsonic velocity. They do expand but that is not what I rely on for success. Placement, placement, and placement are the 3 references I hang my hat on.

[waksupi]

IF your are good enough and patient enough to only take a head shot .

Yeah, saw the neighbor do that three weeks ago. Blew away the complete nose, right back to the eyes. Deer was still alive and had to be ran down. I'll pass.

[Digital Dan]

I shot a deer in the ears years ago. Close range and she dropped her head just as I shot. And then she sort of locked up for a second, eyes all wide.

One of my "buddies" said after telling the tale that she had run by his stand a few minutes after he heard the shot and that whistling tone that changed each time she jumped just confused him something awful. They don't ever let me forget that. Saw her several times in following years and yep, a very good job of ear piercing I did.

[Blackwater]

I've never done it, but from what I've read and heard from those who have, the problem with spitzer type cast is you're really fighting two things at once. Lead, being softer than hard covered (and thus protected) j-bullets do change shape as they're driven harder and harder, so you can really make use of those pointy bullets' ballistic potential. This affects accuracy, typically. And if you don't have the accuracy, you can't hit those yonder long shots. Stiffen them up enough, and they don't expand very well. If they don't expand very well, you'll have more tracking to do, and it could well be a long, tiring job. Are you up to that kind of tracking in the cold, cold winter?

It's basically just trying to join things together that just don't generally play together well. Still, it's an intriguing idea, and certainly, we've never learned much from just doing things the same old way all the time. The thing that worries me most about it is the lack of expansion if you make the bullet hard and strong enough to get the accuracy necessary for those long shots. I'll always take the "whop factor" of a FP bullet. When I shoot long range, except for BPCR, I just a good J-bullet, but even then, I select them for their expansion. Our little southern whitetails seldom hit 200, while some mule deer are often over 300 (live wts.). This also affects bullet selection, and the bigger deer call for a somewhat tougher bullet.

Much of successful hunting involves making the RIGHT selection of the bullets we use, and it's SO much easier and reliable to shoot the FP's, so I just choose my hunting spots accordingly, and find happiness in doing that. I love a guy who wants to see what's on the other side of the mountain. I just don't always follow that route myself, though I have done a lot of experimenting with what I do, what is more proven, and what seems to work best. Nothing ventured, nothing gaines. Being older, I just tend to satisfy myself these days by dancing with the one that brung me. As a younger man, though, I'd try anything twice. If it was worth one try and didn't work, I figured I needed to try it again just to make sure.

If you play with this, please give us a report, and let us know how it works as to expansion on wet newsprint or something. I think lots of us might find it very interesting. Accuracy AND expansion is what you'd be after, and it'd be very interesting to read how it all turns out. I think we all here are amenable to being proven wrong. Keeps us humble and fascinated by how we might do things a little better.

[PositiveCaster]

Long pointed bullets don't need to expand to kill very well. If not driven too fast or if fired in slow twist barrels they will tumble in game and produce lethal wounds. A number of .300 Whisper shooters use 220-grain RN jacketed bullets fired subsonic, and the terminal effects on game are impressive. But, the lower velocities required negate any small advantage of an improved BC....



.

[jhalcott]

I have hadsuccess with several calibers using soft point boolits. From 7mmto 45_70. Fifty of them will last many years of hunting. Theregular cast bullets from the mold shoot to the same place as the soft noses. Long range is NOT HUNTING . It, to easy for the animal to move resulting in a wounded animal. Fill a couplegallon jugs with water and shoot them with round nose, pointed and flatnose bullets. Cast of straight WW alloy. Note the reaction of the jugs when impacted by thedifferent nose styles. Try this at the distances you think you will be shootinng at game.

[RU shooter]

Yeah, saw the neighbor do that three weeks ago. Blew away the complete nose, right back to the eyes. Deer was still alive and had to be ran down. I'll pass.

thats the same reason I never tryed a head shot I know a few guys that do though and are successful but most are shooting at 50yd or under in the woods around here .

[quilbilly]

I have two spire point molds. One is a custom Saeco 30 Cal 180 plain base and the other is a Lyman 25 Cal 103 gr. During my terminal ballistics test in soaked compressed phone books from 40 yards, both started tumbling about 4 inches into the medium and got about 14 inches of penetration. The initial velocity of the plain base 30 cal was 1300 fps and the gas checked 25 cal was about 1800 fps. As soon as tumbling started, each boolit veered off at various angles but left a large "wound channel". I tested each 3 times and neither veered the same way twice once tumbling started. Both are quite accurate in their rifles, a 308 and a 250 Sav. but for hunting I have other molds.

[Wolfer]

The closest thing to a pointed boolit I've used for hunting is the Lee 339-220-1R. Cast 50/50 and run at around 1800 fps I would rate terminal performance as superb on the three deer and one coyote I've shot with it.
While this boolit is very accurate in my 338 Win mag it was just ok in my homemade 34-57. I had Tom at accurate molds make me a 200 gr FP that fits my throats exactly. Accuracy was greatly improved but terminal performance was about the same on the two deer I shot with it this year.

Like others have said my opinion is if it's soft enough to expand reliably it's soft enough to slump.
I am just talking theory and as you know in theory practice and theory are the same but in practice they often are not.

[Hamish]

Airplanes, submarines, and pointy bullets are pointy for good reasons,,,,,,,,,,and inducing shock waves ain't one of em,,,,,,,,