Trailboss, pressure vs velocity

[CyberPirate]

First post on the forums here, been lurking for a while so I decided it was time to post a little, my questions is why does it seem with Trailboss, the pressures are so high compared to other powders but the velocity is usually low to midrange, I know the two are not always linked, but could someone who knows maybe help me to understand?

Thanks, and im sorry if this has already been covered, just havent seen it.

CyberPirate

[gofastman]

Trailboss is unique in the fact that it is very fast burning and has very high bulk density.
Its designed to fill big cases like the 45 colt and produce low velocity loads.

[fouronesix]

The same query and questions of the mystery of Trailboss do come up often- and have been since it was introduced. NO mystery to it. You simply can't get high vel from really fast powders- safely. Trailboss is a very fast powder. Forget how much case it fills, LOOK and compare the recommended loads (velocity vs pressure) in grains when comparing powders. Amazing how some will tout the virtues of Bullseye and bad mouth or dismiss Trailboss. In most instances the major difference in many high expansion ratio cartridges is that Bullseye has a greater potential for blowing up a gun than Trailboss.

Think of Trailboss as similar to Bullseye or 700X. Think what applications there are for 5 gr of Bullseye or 700X. 5 gr of Trailboss will be similar. The big difference is density- NOT potential pressures or powder burn speed.

[gtgeorge]

I personally enjoy using TB for lower velocity and less felt recoil in a few different loads that also retain good accuracy. The charges are lower by weight than most other powders which cost close to the same price. I only use it for the lighter target loads though and saves a few pennies over whatever I usually shoot.

Maybe I am missing something?

[nekshot]

I have a hodgen manual from 2010 and they have a very good article on trail boss. It is clear to me from this article trail boss is meant to go reeeal slow and do it safely and economical. Any attempt I found to exceed that intended purpose is a dismal waste of powder and time. I love trail boss and use it whenever I want to go real slow. Any thing other than that gets the prescribed and proven powders associated with desired speed.

[texassako]

I have had good luck with TB lately in rifles, and like how it is difficult to double charge and easy to work up a load in just about anything. I think it is meant to be high pressure for the speeds you get so the brass will obturate and get a gas seal while keeping velocity and recoil down.

[joec]

I'm also a fan of trailboss in 45 colt and 45-70 for plinking and target shooting. I find it clean, pretty accurate, little recoil and meters well. Now if I'm looking for a hunting powder I go to something else in both.

[uscra112]

Other than as a marketing gimmick, just I don't see any point to Trail Boss. It does nothing for me that Red Dot can't do as well or better, and for less money.

Yes, increasing charges vs. velocity gain hits diminishing returns very quickly.

[357Mag]

Cyber -

Howdy !

Trailboss has a pressure curve trace much closer to BP, than any other " smokeless " powder. It is unique, in that respect.

This also lends some credence to the Trailboss = Low vel.... w/ higher chamber pressure equation.

A Trailboss caution that has stuck in my mind, is that one has to be careful not to compress ( overly-compress ) the charge.
What is undesirable, is to end-up shooting loads that have fractured TB powder kernels. All bets are off ( pressure ), when this happens.

When I tried it in .35Rem, accuracy kept getting better and better, as increased the charge. As it turned out, I could not get enough TB in the case,
to have a sensible 100yd accuracy ( target ) load. IMR4759 performed ( for me in my M-336 XLR ) superbly, when shooting a " reduced load ".


With regards,
357Mag

[MT Chambers]

uscra...I think you are missing the point, Red dot is very easy to double charge a .45 Colt's case, with Trail Boss it should be impossible.

[nekshot]

I have been thinking about this thread the last few days and I simply want to applaud Hodgen for producing a product for a exact purpose in the market place (folks wanting slow, easy recoil loads) and giving the incredible safety margin ( inability to double charge) so less expierence folk (and old duffs like me) can safely participate in. My rule of thumb when using this in bottleneck cartridges if I hear the crack of breaking sound barrier than I found the limit (usually) for this powder in said cartridge. So hats off to Hodgen for thinking of guys like me!
nekshot

[Dewey606]

Just FYI, I thought I'd provide my recent Chrony results with some Trail Boss loads. From an Uberti SAA 45 Colt, 5.5gr TB with a Lee TL 452 COWW SWC dropped at 207gr gave me an average of 621.45fps with high of 660.3 and low of 572.8. Same gun and boolit over 5.8gr of TB gave average velocity of 689.983fps, with high of 731.3 and low of 666.6. Both were accurate and had mild recoil. I plan on loading more with the 5.8gr of TB. I also loaded some .41 Rem Magnum and tested from a 4 inch barreled S&W Mod 57. Using a Lee TL .410 COWW LSWC over 4.6 gr of TB gave an average of 647.266fps, with high of 672.8 and low of 587.3. Accuracy was good and recoil for a .41 Mag was mild. I feel I could increase this load.

[Dutch4122]

Found another good use for Trailboss; the .500 S&W Magnum. I have a friend that bought one of the S&W pistols and only has the full use of one hand. Loaded some shells for him with a 440 grain WFNPB (from Matt's Bullets) over 10 grains of Trailboss. He loves the load. Says it makes the big gun kick like a .38 Special snubnose shooting wadcutters. I shot some of the same loads through my H&R Handi-Rifle .500 S&W Mag. Kicks like a big .22 rimfire. Chrono'd at 865 fps out of the rifle barrel. Gonna scope the rifle and wring the load out for accuracy. So far it's "minute of dirt clod" at 100 yards.

[Chapo]

6gr of TB under a 260 gr 44 mag boolit. What a delight to shoot. Minimal leading

[CGT80]

10.0 grains of TB in a 460 mag case under a 45 270 SAA HP PB gives me right around 1,000 fps. I even managed to hit a 12" steel plate at 100 yards with this light load, and I have hardly even shot pistols at that distance. You wouldn't even be able to see 10 grains of red dot in that case, I'll bet. I do like red dot for 45 colt and 30 cal rifles, and herco works but doesn't meter as well. A5744 will go down almost as low as trailboss loads in 460, but it makes trail boss look cheap with the amount of powder it takes and it leaves a ton of unburned powder behind. 5744 at 37 grains IIRC, gives me 1400 fps in the 460 and still doesn't burn all the powder. I haven't run it hotter as 296 is better for top end. Trail boss will leave my big gun really dirty, but I don't usually have powder fall out of the cylinder after firing.

It works well in 30 cal rifle cartridges, but red dot is far more economical. TB isn't for everyone, but it will work in pretty much every cartridge and fills a need for some.

[Whiskeylima]

I have excellent results with 10 gr of TB in a 38-55 for silhouette. My kids can handle the recoil easily and accuracy hasn't suffered.

[rbertalotto]

Trailboss has a pressure curve trace much closer to BP, than any other " smokeless " powder. It is unique, in that respect.

Are we sure about this quote?

[Outpost75]

Trailboss resembles, but may not be identical to, industrial powders intended as substitutes for black powder for maritime uses such as whaling and line throwing. The. 45-70 line throwing blanks used in the H&R line throwing and harpoon guns were loaded with similar powders, and a powder similar to Trail.Boss was used as the propelling charge in the high-low booster canister formed in the base of 40mm grenades used in the M79 and M203 launchers. The Mk19 40mm machinegun used a slower propellant.

I believe that introduction of Trail Boss for the handloading market was simply a way to sell excess inventory of industrial and military powder for which there is less demand than there once was.

[Motor]

First post on the forums here, been lurking for a while so I decided it was time to post a little, my questions is why does it seem with Trailboss, the pressures are so high compared to other powders but the velocity is usually low to midrange, I know the two are not always linked, but could someone who knows maybe help me to understand?

Thanks, and im sorry if this has already been covered, just havent seen it.

CyberPirate

To directly answer your question: Its not only how much pressure is produced but how long the pressure is sustaned. This is also why another (kind of new, now) powder, Leverevolution does what it can do. That is drive a 160gr bullet from a 30-30 faster than most if not all other powders can drive a 150gr bullet while not exceeding the max working pressure of the cartridge. It does it by have a longer pressure curve. That is it maintains high pressure longer.

Trail Boss has a short pressure curve. It tops out then drops off quickly.

If you know anything about archery is comparable to the difference in draw weight vs draw length in compound bows. The longer draw length keeps the bow up on cam longer thus producing more velocity.

Hope this helps.

Motor

[GoodOlBoy]

I know this was not asked by the OP but it has been alluded to by other posters and I wanted to throw in my 2 cents.

In straight or taper walled cases I really enjoy trailboss. It shoots clean (for me) and accurately. I don't have to worry about double charging a case, and I can load by volume comfortably because of that fact.

In bottlenecks I have seen some oddish behavior in trail boss. In the 30-30 winchester behind a cast bullet I get excellent accuracy and results. It makes a good mild low recoil yote popper round out to a hundred yards or so without having to dig into my supply of other powders. When I tried it in 270 and 308 I got just odd results. Loads that grouped one day didn't another, I would see a odd flier now and then, and I just couldn't seem to get it dialed in. Other folks I know of who have used it in bottlenecks didn't have ANY of those issues.

A couple of the things in my experience about TB?

Never compress it. It's a claustrophobic powder. Give it a bit of room in the case (within manufacturer specs)
Always put a good crimp on the bullet. Think of it as Nerd Rage buildup. Give it a extra little time to build to it's full potential, and it's impressive what it can do.
Forget the mangulum primers for a cleaner burn. Dunno why but when I tried the extra "juice" of mangulum primers for it I just got more dirt and crud and less accuracy.

GoodOlBoy