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Thread: Browning Citori blew up!

  1. #21
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    Browning Citori blew up!

    Ok, here's what happened:

    Remington Peters where notorious to have powder burn-through after a couple of reloads, causing hull/head separation. It got lodged in the forcing cone.

    We talked to Browning and went back out and found the hull. I wondered about that when I saw the brass head only.

    After a little research, this has happened before with the same hulls.


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  2. #22
    Boolit Master

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    BT, that doesn't quite add up to me. Ignition. The case separates from the brass but the load is on the way. The case stops but the wad and lead moves on. I can't picture a scenario without a barrel obstruction where the pressure don't get out of the bore. Unless the crimp didn't open, or something. But I'm a cook!
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  3. #23
    Boolit Master gnostic's Avatar
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    I don't think you can screw-up loading shotgun shells. A double charge isn't possible, it wouldn't fit and the charge bar would drop a double, 1 ounce of shot. You'd never get a crimp on the case.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master dkf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnostic View Post
    I don't think you can screw-up loading shotgun shells. A double charge isn't possible, it wouldn't fit and the charge bar would drop a double, 1 ounce of shot. You'd never get a crimp on the case.
    Wouldn't the wad just collapse with a double? Sure you could tell by the increased amount of handle pressure on the press though. Maybe his wife was talking his ear off why loading.

  5. #25
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    you'll buckle the side of the case.

    I have had tube shoot off's before.
    you should see what happens to a teal when a 10ga tube full of steel shot hit's it.
    a split head would just let everything go out the barrel.

    the only way your gonna build enough pressure in a 10-K load to split a gun like that is to have a blockage.
    look at where the break occurs,,,, it is right at the end of the chamber.
    the pressure was contained in that area.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnostic View Post
    I don't think you can screw-up loading shotgun shells. A double charge isn't possible, it wouldn't fit and the charge bar would drop a double, 1 ounce of shot. You'd never get a crimp on the case.
    You are incorrect. I know a guy who did it twice. Using RedDot in a target load. Loading on an older PW 800. The older PW's do not allow die removal so a lazy person who has a screw up will not always clear the machine and start over.

    Anyway, he shot both loads through a K-80. The gun did not blow up. Much later, I had to lend him my spare singles barrel as his barrel separated from the monobloc.

    IMHO, most kabooms are the result of user error or bad reloads.

    Don Verna.

  7. #27
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    Did the shooter hit the pidgeon?
    LMAO at BikerBeans!
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  8. #28
    Boolit Master MarkP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    You are incorrect. I know a guy who did it twice. Using RedDot in a target load. Loading on an older PW 800. The older PW's do not allow die removal so a lazy person who has a screw up will not always clear the machine and start over.

    Anyway, he shot both loads through a K-80. The gun did not blow up. Much later, I had to lend him my spare singles barrel as his barrel separated from the monobloc.

    IMHO, most kabooms are the result of user error or bad reloads.

    Don Verna.
    Don is correct a double charge will crimp and look just fine.
    I have seen a double charge of Greendot take apart a lower priced Spanish 20 ga O/U (similar to pictures above) and an Ithaca M 37. Also saw a Rem 870 take a double charge of Reddot locked it up tight but did not burst or ruin the gun.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blood Trail View Post
    Ok, here's what happened:

    Remington Peters where notorious to have powder burn-through after a couple of reloads, causing hull/head separation. It got lodged in the forcing cone.

    We talked to Browning and went back out and found the hull. I wondered about that when I saw the brass head only.

    After a little research, this has happened before with the same hulls.


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    So, no cut-shells allowed in these shotguns? I don't remember reading the powder brand, charge and payload anywhere, I missed it?

  10. #30
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    I had a blow up that looked almost identical in a single shot Remington 12 ga. many years ago. I've posted about that one before.

    The chamber split leaving about 1/3 of the bottom of the barrel but all the rest was gone.

    In that case I will say bore obstruction and that obstruction was the slug.

    There is no chance of double charge because this was a short hull with slug sitting on a gas seal. It wouldn't crimp with double charge.

    Certainly a 20 ga. hull in front of a a 12 ga. round could make fore a bore obstruction but not sure a loose base wad would or even a separated plastic hull. After all look how much info there is about cut hull shooting. If that doesn't create high pressure or high enough for a blow up, I can't see how a base wad would unless maybe half way out the tube when the the payload meets it but that wouldn't take the chamber apart.

    I'd say the same for the burn through. If the plastic tube made it into the bore I'd figure it would be pushed out. And if it didn't go all the way in you'd not chamber another round.

    I know what happened with my blow up but not so sure here.

    Would be interesting to test pressure with cut hulls, base wad in forcing cone, plastic tube in bore, and...? To see what sort of pressures are generated.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master quail4jake's Avatar
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    If this was not the result of a bore obstruction, it would be the first hat I've ever heard of. The brass appearance in the rupture is the alloy used to braze the monobloc to the barrel.

  12. #32
    Boolit Grand Master Harter66's Avatar
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    So we have an old RP factory load . That separated the tube and blew up the the bbl block .

    At face value .
    Paper or plastic case ?
    I've had a couple of tube shoot offs in a Browning .
    If it were a 50 vintage paper case it may have gotten wet ,swelled ,dried ,and had the felt and/or paper and cards swell and stick maybe even pull paper from a slumped case and the paper wadding changes hardness . This is even easier to see with a case exposed over and over to high temps where the wax would sweat out of the case . Add a little shot corrosion and a rewaxed crimp . Now you have a really hard slug to slam into chamber shoulder and all the wax slickum' gone Even if the case opens at this point it has to push 3/4 inch of hard board wads and hard felt through a hole that is choked down to at least 16 ga . By now we are looking at a nice safe 12,000 LUP 1 1/8 oz load in a paper case that is up around 25,000 psi and hasn't burned all the powder yet .........

    Of course if it were a plastic case all of the above is moot .

    In shotguning the switch from a W209 to a Fed 209A will jump pressures 10,000psi , take a top load at 14,500 and it's 23,000 before you pull the trigger . Add a charge bar cut for 1oz of large steel shot and drop a charge of #8 or 9 lead and viola' now you 1 1/4-5/16 oz of shot sitting on 18 gr of Red Dot and a nice safe 12,000 LUP 1 oz trap loads is a 30k grenade right at the top of CIP proof loads maybe higher .
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  13. #33
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    Ok, so this is what Browning thinks happened:

    Apparently, he old RP hulls had a problem with powder burn-thru at the head, causing the hull to dislodge and sometimes get stuck in the forcing cone.

    These were reloads and the owner of the gun club went back and found the hull. It appeared to have signs of separation. All of that is getting sent to Browning for further examination.

    Now how the shooter didn't noticed only the head rejecting is beyond me.


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  14. #34
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harter66 View Post
    So we have an old RP factory load . That separated the tube and blew up the the bbl block .

    At face value .
    Paper or plastic case ?
    I've had a couple of tube shoot offs in a Browning .
    If it were a 50 vintage paper case it may have gotten wet ,swelled ,dried ,and had the felt and/or paper and cards swell and stick maybe even pull paper from a slumped case and the paper wadding changes hardness . This is even easier to see with a case exposed over and over to high temps where the wax would sweat out of the case . Add a little shot corrosion and a rewaxed crimp . Now you have a really hard slug to slam into chamber shoulder and all the wax slickum' gone Even if the case opens at this point it has to push 3/4 inch of hard board wads and hard felt through a hole that is choked down to at least 16 ga . By now we are looking at a nice safe 12,000 LUP 1 1/8 oz load in a paper case that is up around 25,000 psi and hasn't burned all the powder yet .........

    Of course if it were a plastic case all of the above is moot .

    In shotguning the switch from a W209 to a Fed 209A will jump pressures 10,000psi , take a top load at 14,500 and it's 23,000 before you pull the trigger . Add a charge bar cut for 1oz of large steel shot and drop a charge of #8 or 9 lead and viola' now you 1 1/4-5/16 oz of shot sitting on 18 gr of Red Dot and a nice safe 12,000 LUP 1 oz trap loads is a 30k grenade right at the top of CIP proof loads maybe higher .
    You're saying that switching a 209 primer for a 209A primer with jump 10K psi? I don't know bout that....


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  15. #35
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    hey...at least the trigger and the breech opener knob is still in great condition!

  16. #36
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
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    Even if the outer shell separated from the head & base, it would just perform as a large slug - no harm done. If a shell/tube was left in the forcing cone it still wouldn't ruin the gun in the manner shown (but it could bulge or blow the barrel futher up the bore). On the other hand, doubling a load of, say 17 grains Red Dot (easily accommodated with compression wads) could raise the pressure with a factor three or four or even more. Fast shotgun powders are notorious for pressure spiking when "working pressure" is exceeded.
    Cap'n Morgan

  17. #37
    Boolit Grand Master Harter66's Avatar
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    It is documented in data from Ballistic Products . Similar trends are seen but separated by pages in the Lyman manual also .
    In the time of darkest defeat,our victory may be nearest. Wm. McKinley.

    I was young and stupid then I'm older now. Me 1992 .

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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerbeans View Post
    Did the shooter hit the pidgeon?

    BB
    He fragged it. Don't know if that counts as a hit.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master gnostic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkf View Post
    Wouldn't the wad just collapse with a double? Sure you could tell by the increased amount of handle pressure on the press though. Maybe his wife was talking his ear off why loading.
    I don't think you could get the case crimped shut with a double charge and you'd have shot pouring out of the case jamming the press up. Also, the case would have a bulge if the wade folded up, I've seen that happen on 410's many times...
    Last edited by gnostic; 12-26-2016 at 07:03 PM.

  20. #40
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    In a break open like the O/U look before inserting a shell every time. It takes parts of a second is all. Especially with reloads.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check