Best value entry-level red dot for AR platform

[nagantguy]

I have a Truglo that has a 2 x built in, I'm pretty happy with it, it is currently sitting on my SKS.
Price around 60$

Have that same sight on a ar build and another on a 10/22, can find no fault with them for around 60 bucks, even seem able to with stand the rigors of a long winter coyote hunting!

[Lloyd Smale]

wonder if those under a 100 bucks sights will hold up for the long run. Can the do this? http://www.recoilweb.com/vortex-spar...die-67267.html

[W.R.Buchanan]

Lloyd: from what I have heard on the web the Bushnell TRS-25 can take a lot of abuse from heavy recoiling guns. I can't vouch for the other brands that get recommended all the time here. They have been mounted on Marlin 1895 Carbines in .45-70 and 12ga Riot Guns and lived thru that. None of the ones on any of my guns have ever moved zero and function perfectly every time I turn them on. And I am looking at mounting one on my Mossberg 500 as I could benefit from the faster Target Acquisition. I don't see any reason why it shouldn't last and if it does cack, I'll send it back to Bushnell and they'll replace it.

I think they are too big to run on the slide of a Glock or other auto pistol but I do have a Burris Fast Fire ($250) on my G35 and it lives fine. Also all the poly pistol makers are offering their guns with these type sights included.

Also I watch a lot of the hunting shows on the outdoor channel and has seen numerous Burris type optics of large Double rifles and magazine rifles as well. The fast target acquisition provided by the Red Dot sight picture is the fastest way out there.

Have you seen any of these sights on the Trap or Skeet fields near you?

Randy

[Lloyd Smale]

I don't get into the shotgun sports so I haven't really seen how they work on shotguns. I do have two of the busnell trs-25s but both are on 22s so they don't get much of a test. I guess bottom line is if you don't have more then a 100 bucks to spend on a red dot there the one you should be looking at. Hands down better then the cheap imports. Do I think they compete with a vortex strike fire or sparc. NO but those two sights cost 2-3 times as much and should be better. Kind of like comparing a vortex to an aimpoint. the vortex's are good but there not aimpoint good and shouldn't be at a 1/3 the price.

[mcdaniel.mac]

Lloyd: from what I have heard on the web the Bushnell TRS-25 can take a lot of abuse from heavy recoiling guns. I can't vouch for the other brands that get recommended all the time here. They have been mounted on Marlin 1895 Carbines in .45-70 and 12ga Riot Guns and lived thru that. None of the ones on any of my guns have ever moved zero and function perfectly every time I turn them on. And I am looking at mounting one on my Mossberg 500 as I could benefit from the faster Target Acquisition. I don't see any reason why it shouldn't last and if it does cack, I'll send it back to Bushnell and they'll replace it.

I think they are too big to run on the slide of a Glock or other auto pistol but I do have a Burris Fast Fire ($250) on my G35 and it lives fine. Also all the poly pistol makers are offering their guns with these type sights included.

Also I watch a lot of the hunting shows on the outdoor channel and has seen numerous Burris type optics of large Double rifles and magazine rifles as well. The fast target acquisition provided by the Red Dot sight picture is the fastest way out there.

Have you seen any of these sights on the Trap or Skeet fields near you?

Randy

There's another option for autopistols that I've been watching. ALG, the company run by Mr. Geissele's (well noted for high-end triggers and AR parts) wife to made mid-grade and entry-priced AR parts now makes the Six Second mount, which allows a red dot to sit so low over the slide you have to remove the sight to install the mount. Handy for running something like a PA Micro on a gun that isn't milled for an RDS. I have an acquaintance who reviewed them for RECOIL magazine and spoke very highly of it.

I have a spare TRS 25 now, and a Blackhawk should be coming my way here soon, so I may be testing it out on a Weigand no-drill mini mount here soon. I have used it previously on a Keltec SU16 with no problems, but it wasn't a gun I abused all too much either.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have them on my SU16CA, Mini14, AR, Sub2000, Ruger GSR, and my Ruger 10/22... None of these guns are really beating the sight all that much. I have seen them on several Marlin Guide Guns that have lasted without failure. on a Revolver Like an SBH I could see them living.

Mounted to a cycling slide of an auto pistol,,, maybe not?

I have a Burris Fast Fire mounted on my Glock 35 and so far it has not moved. It is mounted using the Burris Mounting System that replaces the rear sight.

There is a learning curve with using the Red Dot System on a Defensive Pistol. That learning curve is all about finding the dot each time the gun is presented from the holster. Once you get that engrained and the dot is there everytime when you bring the gun into the line of sight you'll be fine. Prior to that you will experience a little time lag in your first shot time as it takes a few tenths to find the dot if it isn't there.

More Practice is the simple answer to this.

Randy

[commando223]

I recently picked up a used Holosun on another forum its looks good but I haven't had a chance to take it out and sight in.

[GlockGuy]

Great suggestions -- helps me out with my search

[Lloyd Smale]

its not turning them off that concerns me its turning them on. I have an AR by the bed for home defense. Last thing I want to do under the pressure of a home invasion in the dark is fumble around trying to turn an optic on. Ive got a couple comp2s. They claim battery life of a year on that model left on constantly. the one by my bed has been on for 3 years on the same battery and is still functioning fine. This year I was going to replace the battery because it seemed a bit dimmer but it was turned down so low that all it took was bumping the rheostat up one notch and it was as good as new. Battery life is not all your buying. I once saw a video where two men had them mounted on ars. They were in a cement parking lot. THey each took off there sight bounced it 30 yards across the parking lot. grabbed them and skipped them back again. they put them back on the at and shot a group at 50 yards and both still shot exactly to point of aim. They also took them and dropped them on concreted for a 3rd floor window on to concrete and rechecked them again and the sight and mount still held zero. I doubt if a 70 dollar sight would take that kind of abuse. Sure a guy isn't going to get in the habbit of skipping his sight across a parking lot but its peace of mind knowing that if I knock my rifle over onto a hard surface that the sight is going to take a beating. All that said there a bit expensive for me too. I'm retired now and on a fixed income and aimpoints and acogs aren't on the menu anymore. I have had great luck with vortex strikefires and sparcs too. They are what I have come to buy. I do have one bushnell tr25 on a ruger 22 pistol. It has held up for a couple years but just doesn't inspire the confidence that the vortex and aimpoints and trijicons do. For me anyway the best bang for the buck out there right now are the vortex dots. Ive haven't left a vortex on to test actual battery life though. Its pretty tough because theres one thing I don't like about them. that's the automatic shut off. Id like to see them sell one that doesn't have that feature.

The main reason why Aimpoints cost so much is because their main customer is the US Govt. The cost of the Certs required to market that sight to them are astronomical. If that sight was strictly a civilian market thing it would probably be <$300. They are definitely the best out there, but they are 5X more than my Bushnell's and I can't justify putting a $600 sight on 6 different guns.

On the other sights that you have to actually turn off when not in use, a big white paint line on the dial will catch your attention so you remember to turn it off.(got that from Nut n Fancy!) I did this to all mine and it does make a difference. I also have a spare battery stored on the guns in a little Vortex Spare Battery container that mounts on the Pic Rail. It's right in front of the sight on the AR and right behind the light on the KT.

I only forgot once, but I had the back up nearby.

Randy

[winelover]

I have a older Vortex SPARC. Battery life isn't that great, even when off. Manual even states to remove battery if not used, often. I didn't and left it in for over a year. Next time I used it, it would turn on but wouldn't turn it off.

Made a call to Vortex Customer Service. They told me it was common and to just replace the battery. That solved the reoccurring issue. Not what I call.... well designed.

Winelover

[725]

Trs-25

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yeah Lloyd; You would have to think about giving the knob a half turn as you pic up the gun, but that's just part of the deal.

I really want one of the Trijicon Sights for my upcoming G23 project, but the best price I have seen was $491 at Optics Planet. so moving my Burris Fast Fire to that gun is probably what is going to happen. Even that one has to be turned off if stored for a long time, but the batteries are supposed to last for along time (1 year?) but I wouldn't count on it. I'd always have a spare with me.

Nope, there is a trade off here and unless you are using the gun in a real live combat scenario, the less expensive sights can really pay for themselves, and I personally feel they are all that is needed. Believe me if I thought I was going to be getting shot at regularly I'd spring for the Aimpoint too. Until that day comes to pass my TRS-25's will have to suffice.

Randy

[Lloyd Smale]

that's odd. I have a strike fire on my smith ar22 and a sparc on one of my ar15s and both have had the same batterys in them for 3 years and I just went and checked and both are just as bright on the same setting as they were when I put them in it. Granted they don't get hundreds of hours of use each year but I have taken both out a number of times in the last 3 years. One thing I have learned with all of these electronic sights is don't buy cheap batterys. Duracells are about all I will use in them. Some of the cheaper batterys will go bad just sitting over time and if your getting them on line is hard to say how old they are when you get them new. One other thing I do with all of my ars is put a trapdoor grip on them and stick an extra battery in there and when I change out batterys after a few years toss that one when I toss the one I'm replacing and replace both with fresh batterys. But I have to say that ive had real good battery life out of both my strikefire and sparc. I'm about to pull the plug on another sparc and am looking at the one that uses AAA batterys. I guess they have a bit less battery life then the coin batterys but if shtf batterys would be easy to find anywhere for it. If yours is eating batterys just sitting Id consider boxing it up an sending it in. Don't ask first. that's my rule with all returns. If you ask they try to say its ok. If you send it in they have it there and have to ship it back anyway so they ususaly fix or repair it so you don't send it in again. Vortex customer service is one of the best in the industry and id bet they take care of you.

I have a older Vortex SPARC. Battery life isn't that great, even when off. Manual even states to remove battery if not used, often. I didn't and left it in for over a year. Next time I used it, it would turn on but wouldn't turn it off.

Made a call to Vortex Customer Service. They told me it was common and to just replace the battery. That solved the reoccurring issue. Not what I call.... well designed.

Winelover

[winelover]

Lloyd....the battery in question was the one supplied with the optic. I don't recall the brand but it wasn't Duracell. And yes I buy my batteries on line and in quantity. However, the same brand and size, are used in six other CT laser grips with years of acceptable service behind them. They are never turned off.

I quit buying the Chinese junk Duracell brand, a few years ago after they leaked, in a couple of expensive Maglite's. I only purchase Lithium batteries nowadays, because they are less prone to leak.....so I would be leery of using common AA or AAA batteries in optics.

Winelover

[Lloyd Smale]

leakage is a good point and something I never thought of when considering the new aaa unit. Ive ruined flashlights with leaking batteries and it would :::: a guy off to ruin a 200 dollar sight.

Lloyd....the battery in question was the one supplied with the optic. I don't recall the brand but it wasn't Duracell. And yes I buy my batteries on line and in quantity. However, the same brand and size, are used in six other CT laser grips with years of acceptable service behind them. They are never turned off.

I quit buying the Chinese junk Duracell brand, a few years ago after they leaked, in a couple of expensive Maglite's. I only purchase Lithium batteries nowadays, because they are less prone to leak.....so I would be leery of using common AA or AAA batteries in optics.

Winelover

[jmort]

Both my SPARCs are AAA
To me, battery quality has improved greatly and if you get a name brand battery you are unlikely to have leakage. That takes a long time with batteries rated to perform to spec for many year in storage.
The Hazzard is small compared to the availability of AAA batteries. Never have liked button batteries.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have had so many thing ruined by leaking batteries It really pisses me off when it happens. Duracells are some of the worst offenders, but no brand is exempt.

Now I look for NiCds or Lithiums and generally they can be recharged. Even the HF brands of Nicads and Lithiums last for a long time and don't leak. You just got to remember to recharge them and not throw them away when they die.

I have one of those Goal Zero Solar Chargers that charges 4 AA or AAA batteries in about 5 hours.

We have lots of Flashlights laying around in our house and we go thru a lot of batteries. The Duracell 3 packs of flashlights from Costco look nice but they kill batteries in about a month just sitting around. I guess the LED Circuitry uses power all the time. It is too big a pITB to recharge Nicads for those lights so we just use the Costco brand of batteries which seem to last as long as the Duracells that cost twice as much.

Be cool if flashlights were Tritium Powered ! They could do that ,,, right?

Are the Atomic Beam Flash Lights seen on TV,,,, Nuclear Powered?

Randy

[ole 5 hole group]

Fresh batteries are sometimes hard to find - sometimes impossible. If your batteries were manufacturer 2 years ago - sometimes they will only have 50% life left, sometimes less.

On a semi-auto with a milled slide, there is no learning curve for a low profile reflex red dot - at least for a Leupold deltapoint. When you bring the pistol up and your eye looks for that rear sight - the large red dot will be there - every time. I've run a Leupold Deltapoint with the 7.5 MOA delta on my 1911 now for several years - holds zero for target and full-on 45 ACP loads and has done so for thousands of rounds. I know on a revolver, there is a rather large learning curve - a learning curve is a lot of practice - A LOT.

[Lloyd Smale]

Whats odd to me is one of those coin batterys has more life then a AAA. At least that's what vortex claims. The coin sparc has better battery life then the AAA one does.

Both my SPARCs are AAA
To me, battery quality has improved greatly and if you get a name brand battery you are unlikely to have leakage. That takes a long time with batteries rated to perform to spec for many year in storage.
The Hazzard is small compared to the availability of AAA batteries. Never have liked button batteries.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The tendency on pistol Red Dots when you present the gun is to be muzzle high. I am looking for the Front Sight and not the back so when the front sight is visible thru the optic I am high and bring the gun down til the dot is visible.

The big thrust at the show was sets of sights that were high enough so that they co-witnessed with the dot. Virtually everyone who sold pistols with slide cutouts had them. That way if your battery cacks you have instant back up. Trijicon has a sight that is tritium/ sunlight powered and needs no batteries. Cheapest price I've seen on that sight is $491 at Optics Planet. other versions of the same basic sight are as much as $650!

This is all being driven by the new "Carry Optics" classes in IDPA and other shooting sports, and there was a significant number of them at the SHOT show.

There was also a bunch of AR's with 9MM lowers and even a conversion kit that made your existing lower 9MM compatible. This is all about the new "Pistol Caliber Carbine" Classes in USPSA and others , which is a good thing since now I have a use for my KT S2K.

These sights are the wave of the future and the main reason is the speed of target acquisition. Once you get acclimated to the system you'll never go back.

Randy