Bore polishing (NOT firelapping)

[Molly]

I was participating in a recent bull session of local gunsmiths yesterday, and brought the subject of shooting slick up for comments. The comments were quite interesting, and included things like:

“(Local BP gunsmith) will swear its true, and says that he's experienced it several times. He says nothing will cure it except to wrap 000 or 0000 steel wool on a jag and run it up and down the bore for half an hour or so to rough the bore up a bit.”

Another 'smith opined that while he wasn't into BP much, he'd sure take exception if anyone tried to tell him that the same thing would happen with modern guns, and he hadn't seen anything like that in several decades of smokeless powder cartridge guns.

Another 'smith laughed, and said that a lot of BP shooters used various oils to lube their patches, and that some oils would form hard cakes with BP residues, especially if shot enough to warm up the barrel. Said a lot of dried / hardened oil or grease lubes wouldn't clean out well with soap and water (the classic BP cleaning solution) and left a residue that would dry and harden with time, kinda like linseed oil paint, and this would cause all sorts of accuracy problems like preventing the ball from seating properly tight against the powder charge, etc. He thought that all (the local BP 'smith) was doing to restore his guns was to give them a good thorough cleaning with steel wool.

The general consensus was that the notion didn't seem to have much merit, and that included the opinion of one 'smith with considerable BP experience, who said he'd heard of it, but never seen a case.

Me, I dunno. I’m not into BP. But at least the cleaning explanation accounts for both the slow deterioration of accuracy and its restoration by 'roughening' the bore, which would surely be vigorous enough to remove any tough, water-resistant caking deposits. I think this would be worth some serious investigation by someone interested. If'n I were interested enough to pursue it, I'd maybe start by getting a rifle that was 'shooting slick' and see if pouring the barrel full of paint remover overnight visibly removed anything, or restored / changed accuracy. At least, this would have the advantage of not removing any metal from the bore, so it would still be 'slick', and accuracy should still be the same.

If paint remover didn't give me some hints, I'd pour some naphtha down the barrel and scrub the dickens out of it with steel wool. Then I'd dip a magnet in the cleaning naphtha to remove the steel wool and its fragments, and see what I have left. If it's still water-white naphtha, I'd say that the residue idea was all wet. But if the naphtha has a lot of specks that aren't removed by the magnet, I'd find out what they are, and how they got there. How? Slosh some of the same steel wool in naphtha, tearing some of the wool into small bits. Soak well, and remove the steel wool with the magnet. What does the naphtha look like? If it's still got a lot of specks, they’re are coming from something in the steel wool (a rust preventive perhaps) and not the bore. Simple reflection will suggest a lot of easy, simple tests that can be very informative. And believe me; a single experimental test will trump a thousand expert opinions to the contrary!

If that didn't tell me anything, I'd take a good shooting rifle and fire a few groups to establish a base accuracy performance. Then I'd get some chrome polish to lubricate my patches with for a while. Shouldn't take too much of that to give a bore that was as slick as a mirror. Then I'd re-check accuracy with the original load. Then I'd scrub with steel wool and test accuracy again. Somewhere along the line, I think I'd learn something.

Frankly, the whole thing sounds rather far-fetched to me. But as soon as I say that, I'm reminded of the huge difference that changing cast bullet lubes will make in modern rifles.

And I've personally - and repeatedly - experienced poor shooting from dried residues of Hoppes until I got it shot out. - or unless I scrub it out with a bronze brush and paint thinner before shooting.

So, mebby there's something to it after all. Even with smokeless rifles and jacketed bullets, first shot accuracy has been a conundrum for a long time, and maybe this is part of the explanation there too.

Who, ME? No thanks, I'm not into BP. I don't have time to handle the cast bullet projects I want to do as it is. But there's no reason one or two of you fellows couldn't have some fun is there? Go to it, and let us know what happens.

So many interesting questions, so little time ....

Regards,
Molly

BTW Joe, what's Wagner's Fallacy #2? Or are you going to hold that one back until you're done milking this one? (VBG)

[Digital Dan]

If my words inspire, use with my blessing. If not, then don't. My point went to the fact that unlubed onionskin will polish a bore without help. The other will abrade a bore continuously, lubed or not. Some folks like to use centerfolds or the like for paper patch as a matter of course. It's not a good idea.

[Digital Dan]

If there is any interest on the point of refreshing a bore I suggest reading the Warner-Lowe letters or some of the older books on BP. I recall that Ned Roberts had a thing or two to say on the subject in his book. One may also wish to go to the WSU site and do a search on the subject.

http://wyomingschuetzen.com/forum/index.php

[Molly]

If there is any interest on the point of refreshing a bore I suggest reading the Warner-Lowe letters or some of the older books on BP. I recall that Ned Roberts had a thing or two to say on the subject in his book. One may also wish to go to the WSU site and do a search on the subject.
http://wyomingschuetzen.com/forum/index.php

Hey digital,

I've got the Roberts book - was reading in it recently too. But I don't recall what he said on the subject, or where he said it. All I can recall is some vague memories of recutting the rifling of a worn out rifle - not the same thing at all. Can you give me a page or chapter to help refresh my own memory?
Thanks,
Molly

[Digital Dan]

Not at the moment, sorry. My read was quite awhile back so the memory is not clear. Out of town in an hour or two be back mid week and might be able to reference this topic to some of the above. I have the Warner-Lowe letters on disc but it's a vast document and again, time is short.

Later maybe.

[Molly]

... I have the Warner-Lowe letters on disc but it's a vast document and again, time is short.
Later maybe.

You DO??? I don't. I didn't even know they were available, much less on disc. Can you tell me where to order them, and their cost?

Thanks,
Molly

[Digital Dan]

http://www.nmlra.org/

Look in the merchandise section if memory serves.

About $30 as I recall. Colorful language redacted by requirement of the families but interesting anyway. I have been sucked into the slug gun and picket rifle world by those loonies at WSU. Make sure you've been inoculated before going there. There's a fellow there that builds his own scopes and more than a few guns. Svelte things that shoot 900 gr bullets of 50 caliber and so forth. Actually, they are really svelte. I fondled a Perry .56 the other day that toted in a 34# but it uses 1300 grain bullets. 16 radiused grooves in the rifling, 18" twist at the muzzle. Those old fahts were pretty tricky....

Perry in the back, my Reinhard .40 caliber picket in front.

[Molly]

http://www.nmlra.org/

Look in the merchandise section if memory serves. About $30 as I recall. Colorful language redacted by requirement of the families but interesting anyway.

I have been sucked into the slug gun and picket rifle world by those loonies at WSU. Make sure you've been inoculated before going there. There's a fellow there that builds his own scopes and more than a few guns. Svelte things that shoot 900 gr bullets of 50 caliber and so forth. Actually, they are really svelte. I fondled a Perry .56 the other day that toted in a 34# but it uses 1300 grain bullets. 16 radiused grooves in the rifling, 18" twist at the muzzle. Those old fahts were pretty tricky....

Perry in the back, my Reinhard .40 caliber picket in front.

Gotta have those disks! Thanks a bundle. BTW, I think I've noticed your Perry .50 before, or perhaps it was the .56. Or maybe not. It's been a while, and I'm no longer sure of the caliber. I might be wrong, but I THINK the one that came to my attention was not a small bore like yours. I believe it showed up in an article entitled "The Madman of Gaylord's Corner." Well worth digging up, if you don't have a copy. Thet durn thing almost got ME into slug guns! (VBG)

Molly

[Molly]

If there is any interest on the point of refreshing a bore I suggest reading the Warner-Lowe letters or some of the older books on BP. ...

Hey Dan,

I mentioned "The Madman of Gaylord's Corners", (whose slug gun was a 0.6832" bore) and decided to re-read that, among some of Lucian Cary's other stories. Found a quote that will fascinate everyone on this thread.

From "The J. M. Pyne stories & other selected writings" by Lucian Cary" (Edited by Guy Lautard), pages 24 - 25, discussing Harry Pope and the techniques he used to produce his barrels:

Quote: "The refinement in manufacture (developed by Pope) was in the slightest possible use of the lapping rod. It was customary for most barrel makers to take off the burrs left by the rifling cutter with a lead lap coated with oil and emery. Heavy lapping obliterates the niceties of the original cut. Pope wanted to cut his grooves to his predetermined shape, and he did not then want to spoil this shape by lapping. However, he usually found it necessary to do a little lapping. To distinguish the light lapping he did from the heavy lapping of others, he called what he did "polishing." End quote.

Pope is generally credited with making some of the best barrels of his day, and for generations to come. His barrels covered everything from BPML match rifles to military production of the 30-40 Krag. But I never heard of any of his "polished-bore" rifles being accused of poor accuracy due to 'slick shooting'.

Regards,
Molly

[joeb33050]

BTW Joe, what's Wagner's Fallacy #2? Or are you going to hold that one back until you're done milking this one? (VBG)

Molly, it ain't Wagner, its Warner.
In 1971 the Gun Digest folks printed a magazine composed of the first issues of The Rifle (1883), Shooting and Fishing (1888), Arms And The Man (1906) and The American Rifleman (1923. The H. Warner article is from that magazine. I bought a lot of the magazines, remaindered, at $1.59, and gave most away as presents. Only two left.
I just wrote Rudi, asking if H. published further fallacy articles. When he responds, I'll put his answer here. Somewhere.
joe b.

[Molly]

Hi Joe,

> Molly, it ain't Wagner, its Warner.
Arrrggghhh! (Blush) That's what I get for trying to think at 2:00 AM! (BG)

> I just wrote Rudi, asking if H. published further fallacy articles. When he responds, I'll put his answer here. Somewhere.

Thanks. Should make great reading if we can find them.

Molly

[Digital Dan]

Molly, I recall that about Pope's approach to making barrels from a book called, oddly enough, "The Story of Pope's Barrels". If you make if fair from the start it won't need much finish work. I don't really have an opinion as to whether or why bores need refreshing, but some of the old hats say it's true.

The Perry rifle is a .56, have a bullet from the mould downstairs. Sad that I don't own that gun. It shoots two styles with equal aplomb. A 900 grain swaged version which I have, and a 1300 gr. two piece, which I don't.

[Molly]

> I don't really have an opinion as to whether or why bores need refreshing, but some of the old hats say it's true.

Yeah, but it's confusing: Some - real experts - say a P barrel will shoot slick, while others - even more expert - polish their bores to make them shot better. Sur wish I understood what was going on.

> The Perry rifle is a .56, have a bullet from the mould downstairs. Sad that I don't own that gun. It shoots two styles with equal aplomb. A 900 grain swaged version which I have, and a 1300 gr. two piece, which I don't.

OOOHH! And a cross patch at that! Brother, does that put me in the lead of the pack coveting something that is my neighbor's.

Molly

[Molly]

Fellows, I'm sorry to announce that I will have to revert to an infrequent lurker mode for some time to come: My wife went into the hospital yesteday afternoon with severe respiratory problems, and they're trying to get her into emergency surgery today. They are trying to figure out exactly what sort of 'interstitial (?sp?) lung disease' she has. If it's inflammatory, they can treat it with antibiotics. If it's scarring, there isn't much they can do except keep her comfortable. Either way, she's gonna need my support for some time to come. And I have some entertaining medical conditions of my own.

I'll be back as opportunity permits, but not on a regular basis.

God Bless,
Molly

[No_1]

Molly,

I know the feeling when it comes to the wife. Mine has been dealing with some major issues lately that has had me worried. You and the Miss are on my get well prayer list. If there is anything anyone can do, do not hesitate to ask.

Robert

Fellows, I'm sorry to announce that I will have to revert to an infrequent lurker mode for some time to come: My wife went into the hospital yesteday afternoon with severe respiratory problems, and they're trying to get her into emergency surgery today. They are trying to figure out exactly what sort of 'interstitial (?sp?) lung disease' she has. If it's inflammatory, they can treat it with antibiotics. If it's scarring, there isn't much they can do except keep her comfortable. Either way, she's gonna need my support for some time to come. And I have some entertaining medical conditions of my own.

I'll be back as opportunity permits, but not on a regular basis.

God Bless,
Molly

[waksupi]

Molly, best wishes to you, and your wife.

[Digital Dan]

Hope it works out for the better. Take care of your #1 priority Molly, we'll be here when all is well.

[Vstrom]

I don't know about too much of a polished barrel?? My Glock 35 looks like a mirror and it shoots just fine as do most Glocks! I doubt if I will be running anything trough the barrel to ruffin it up!!

[docone31]

Freshing a barrel was fairly common back in the 1700's, and early 1800's.
The barrels were a damascus variant, then reamed, and rifled. The powder was corrosive.
Even through we today fire many times more rounds through our barrels in one shooting session, back then, the powder would eat the bore.
Rather than purchase a new rifle, a barrel was set up to be Freshed.
An Hawken as an example was usually .52 calibre. After firing many rounds, the rifleing would become pitted. The rear tang would be removed, the bore re-reamed, and re-rifled. In most cases, using the Hawken as the example, and this is only the plains variant. Hawkens came in many other calibres, in most cases, the .52 would become .54. The tang would be retorqued, the barrel installed, and the shooting would commence.
I have seen many plains rifles. The percussion cap was the major culprit with pitting on the surface of the barrel, around the nipple. I suspect the priming compound also played a major role inside the barrel.
I have seen Freshing machines, both handmade, and factory exhibits. It is fascinating. The handmade machines were hand powered.
Perhaps 25yrs ago, I had the chance to visit an old Pennsylvania rifle maker family. The original family still lived there although they no longer cared about great grandpa's livelihood. I got to see the original shop, complete with major cobwebs, old wooden machines full of worm holes, old dust, and even a mouse nest. In the attic was a supply of made up barrels, dust thickly on top of them.
If you have ever been to an old barn, with an old hay loft, it was the same kind of dust. The forge, and bellows were unuseable. The leather of the bellows was about gone. What was fascinating was the barrel mandrel. The stub was only about four inches long. The barrel reamer was incredibly simple, and the rifleing machine was amazing. It was mostly wood!
The twist logs were still there, full of worm holes, but still there.
I was really amazed.
They did indeed Fresh a barrel. It was fairly simple to someone with experience. Instead of taking months to make a rifle, it took about a day. Remove the barrel, ream the bore, and rifle it. The finishes were browning. This person made his own browning.
The family had no interest whatsoever in the "goodies" in the barn. They just did not have the whatever to toss it, or sell it. Only the remaining Grandpa, they called him "Grumpy" knew anything about it. He and I spoke for a while.
He remembered draw filing the lands on the barrel, and using silk to straighten out the barrel. He also remembered driving the old Harley with the carbide lamp, still in the barn.
I hope I did not go too far off topic, but Freshing jogged my memory. I have seen hand reaming, and hand rifleing, but those were made from old drawings.
In my opinion, they were craftsmen in those days.
The Great-great grandchildren were suprised anyone was even interested.
I sure was.
I am also sometimes greatly self absorbed.
Molly, I hope your wife gets through this with strength. I am at the age, where it is either my wife, or me. I ask myself, will I be there for my wife? It sound like you are for her.
Todays medicine is indeed different than 20 yrs ago. I sure hope they do magic for her.
It sounds like you are going to be there for her.

[Molly]

Hi fellows,

I've had a few questions from citiboy that I thought might interest some of you too. He was gracious enough to give me permission to quote him as follows.

Also, for all of you who have asked, my wife is having a pretty tough time of it, though she's vastly improved over what she was. Right now, we're looking at a lung transplant, since the doctors really can't do much for her current condition otherwise. But on the bright side, the doctors say that she's in good enough health otherwise that they're going to move her to the top of the list, so we're probably going through that in the not too distant future. I'll generally remain in lurk mode when and if I get the time.

>I am getting ready to make up some firelapping loads for my 03-A3 with a 2 groove barrel and would like to pick your brain. I will be using some 150 grain spire point Sierra(?) bullets and some IMR4198 powder I want to get rid of. Looking in the Lyman 3rd edition CB book they list the Lyman 311440 and a minimum load of 25 grains for a velocity of 1776 fps and a pressure of 13,700 CUP. Does this sound reasonable? I thought I would start out with 10 rounds.

Yeah, it does sound reasonable as far as I know, but it's not something I've tried. I'd approach it a little differently: To me, 4198 would be too fast burning for my comfort. Fast powders jump pressures in a HURRY if something goes wrong with your logic - and that's not something you want to play with. The JB WILL increase resistance and pressures. If it were me, I'd use a more normal powder, and tend toward the slow side for added safety margin. For example, I've got an old Hodgdon manual that suggests a starting load of 56g 4831, for 2366 fps and 30M CUP. And I'd even cut that back by a third.

Remember, you're not trying to duplicate factory ammo, or develop a 1000 yard Palma match load. All you need to do is push the bullet through the barrel, and live through the experience. Stack the odds in your favor as much as you can. And even then, I'd recommend firing it from a tire with a string. Yeah, I'm an old scaredy cat, but I've got scars from a rifle blowup to justify it.

>How much JB did you load on the bore mop? It seems to me if there is too much, it will be squeezed out as it enter the throat ( if you start at the chamber end) and there will be a big gob in the throat. What do you thing about starting at the muzzle end?

Gee, I dunno. "Some" would be the only answer I could give you. I dipped the mop in the JB jar and scooped up a gob. Then I rubbed it into the mop with my fingers until it seemed pretty well saturated. I squeezed off the excess with my fingers, and pushed it through the bore several times to make sure it was well coated. I DID look at the chamber after mopping it, and there were no big gobs anywhere. (I'm quite familiar with pressure excursions from grease in the chamber!) As far as starting at the muzzle end ... I wouldn't do it myself: The muzzle is too important to good accuracy to risk damaging it any more than necessary. Granted, JB on a cotton mop isn't likely to damage it, but why not mop from the breech, which is easier, and runs no risk at all? I guess it's the old maid in me, but I like to take the most conservative approach possible, no matter how unlikely the prospect of problems might be. I've seen too many "highly unlikely" things turn out to be unexpectedly - and uncomfortably - real when put to the test. And as I said, I have the scars to prove it!

> I hope your wife is feeling better.

Thanks. It's a day to day sort of thing, but so far, we're getting by.

Hope this helps. BTW, a new posting about getting great results by bore polishing with JB compound just went up on the Cast Bullet Book website. I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but you might want to look it up. (Oops! That's what I get for assuming. I read the comment (an addendum to this bore polishing thread), and while it did say that the bore polishing with JB worked well, it mostly dealt with stuck bullets from too light a load to overcome the friction with the JB compound.)

If you don't mind, I'd like to post this PM on the Cast Boolits topic, because I think you've asked questions that others would like to know about. Any problems with that?

Take care.

Molly