Model 96 Swedish Mauser Accident

[Multigunner]

""Reported by P. T. Kekkonen" who, what, when, where is, as usual lacking."

Look the gentleman up.
I'm certainly not going to buy books printed in a language I don't understand and pay someone to translate them for your benefit.
You couldn't even be bothered to read the article that Larry posted.

[Larry Gibson]

Multigunner

It was interesting that back in the mid '70s when the M3000 was destroyed by a S.E.E. with MRP powder that That Norma had introduced a similar "205" powder. My friend who owned the rifle and was shooting it when the S.E.E. occurred had fired 3 shots that chronographed velocities in increasing fps. The chronograph used back then only gave a 4 digit "time" that was converted to fps from a table. We did not convert during shooting the stating load test string (5 shots at the time). It was the 4th shot that caused the S.E.E. My friend report a click, slight delay and then boom. He got some gas in his face (he had glasses on fortunately). The rifle did not "blow up" as such. The bolt was froze and could not be opened. I pulled the barrel and we found the chamber was swollen, there was bolt lug set back and 3 of the multiple lugs were broken partly off. My friend got a new M3000 action (because he was left handed and the M3000 was made in lefty versions), had the barrel set back and rechambered again to 280 Rem. He/we stuck to IMR4350 and H4831 and had no further problems. I haven't been in touch with him for some years and don't even know if he still has the blown action.

BTW; the velocity of that 4th shot was a bit over 3200 fps which is "smoking" from a 280 Rem with a 168 MK!

About the same time a fellow LEO had a Weatherby 270 custom built and using N205 had an S.E.E. with a "starting load" also. It was built on a nice M70 Winchester action and was totally destroyed. It was shortly these incidents in the mid to late '70s which was after the mentioned S.E.E.'s occurred Norma did a recall on both it and N205 powders due to several similar reported incidents of rifles destroyed. Neither powder was available for some years. Norma apparently revised MRP and reintroduced it some years back. Interesting incidents indeed!

Larry Gibson

[tomme boy]

Multigunner, Larry you two have no idea what you are talking about! I did not SEE it happen so it must be so!

[Mr Humble]

So Larry claims to have evidence (that, of course he cannot produce or verify). Norma 205 is the evil powder ?

Sad to say N205 was around a long time and there were no mass reports of exploding rifles. BTW, MRP came after N205 NOT before.

Speer published these loads for the 243:

.243" Speer 75gr hp
N205 48.0-52.0 grains, 3257-3541 fps

.243" Speer 80gr spitzer
N205 47.0-51.0 grains, 3168-3448 fps

.243" Speer 90gr spitzer
N205 45.0-49.0 grains, 3012-3288 fps

.243" Speer 90gr fmj
N205 45.0-49.0 grains, 3001-3275 fps

.243" Speer 105gr spitzer
N205 42.0-46.0 grains, 2784-3058 fps

.243" Speer 105 gr round nose
N205 42.0-46.0 grains, 2787-3066 fps

Test rifle was a Remington Model 700 with 1-9" twist, 22 inch barrel.


Other real experts all over the net say it was okay to use 4350 or 4831 starting loads and work up from there. If you examine date from both these blowups, both a high intensity cartridges.

Starting loads for either would not be subject to the usual SEE claimed scenario .... i.e. light loads of slow burning powder that are partially ignited, the unburned portion plugs the bore and then is ignited. The combined weight of the bullet and unburned powder raises pressures so high the rifle explodes. That's the THEORY, 100% unproven by any recognized research facility.

Now the old, one off German story was about light loads, not starting loads.

[ASM826]

I was on the line when an early Rock Island '03 failed. It did not blow up, but after a shot, on extraction, a good sized piece of the top of the receiver just fell off. Inspection of the metal under a scope showed crystallization. Simple visual inspection showed that some part of the crack line was old enough to show light corrosion. This was a rifle that was in the serial # range to be considered a collector only piece, but the owner did not know it and had been shooting it in Garand matches for years. During the time he owned it, he had only shot surplus ball ammo. So it does happen. In his case, he was lucky enough to learn an easy lesson.

[EDG]

You don't really have any data from a research facility either. All you are doing is repeating your own words.
You need to find an exhaustive report from a lab that tested many powder and bullet combinations and found nothing. I don't think you have ever seen such a report.
Furthermore you have not produced a single bit of data...
On the other hand I have had the phenomenon happen to me and I could easily repeat it. I still have the recipe for something that you have never tried.
The theory you mention below is NOT the true SEE theory. In fact it must be from your own imagination because it has never been published in those exact words before.

Send me a rifle and I will return the results.

So Larry claims to have evidence (that, of course he cannot produce or verify). Norma 205 is the evil powder ?

Sad to say N205 was around a long time and there were no mass reports of exploding rifles. BTW, MRP came after N205 NOT before.

Speer published these loads for the 243:

.243" Speer 75gr hp
N205 48.0-52.0 grains, 3257-3541 fps

.243" Speer 80gr spitzer
N205 47.0-51.0 grains, 3168-3448 fps

.243" Speer 90gr spitzer
N205 45.0-49.0 grains, 3012-3288 fps

.243" Speer 90gr fmj
N205 45.0-49.0 grains, 3001-3275 fps

.243" Speer 105gr spitzer
N205 42.0-46.0 grains, 2784-3058 fps

.243" Speer 105 gr round nose
N205 42.0-46.0 grains, 2787-3066 fps

Test rifle was a Remington Model 700 with 1-9" twist, 22 inch barrel.


Other real experts all over the net say it was okay to use 4350 or 4831 starting loads and work up from there. If you examine date from both these blowups, both a high intensity cartridges.

Starting loads for either would not be subject to the usual SEE claimed scenario .... i.e. light loads of slow burning powder that are partially ignited, the unburned portion plugs the bore and then is ignited. The combined weight of the bullet and unburned powder raises pressures so high the rifle explodes. That's the THEORY, 100% unproven by any recognized research facility.

Now the old, one off German story was about light loads, not starting loads.

[EDG]

This is the kind of report that Humble says does not exist.

I was on the line when an early Rock Island '03 failed. It did not blow up, but after a shot, on extraction, a good sized piece of the top of the receiver just fell off. Inspection of the metal under a scope showed crystallization. Simple visual inspection showed that some part of the crack line was old enough to show light corrosion. This was a rifle that was in the serial # range to be considered a collector only piece, but the owner did not know it and had been shooting it in Garand matches for years. During the time he owned it, he had only shot surplus ball ammo. So it does happen. In his case, he was lucky enough to learn an easy lesson.

[EDG]

Since you can't seem to define or accept that it even exists you don't get to be called an expert on something you know NOTHING about.
You talking about SEE is like the joke about the pope talking about sex. You are a non-believer so you cannot admit to anything.
Why would you think that your opinion about SEE counts for anything when you claim it does not exist.
How can you say you know the cause of an even that I witnessed? Since you don't know how can you say I don't know?
Your have zero logic to base any opinion on......
You have not produced any lab report have you? You are not going to produce a lab report. You have no lab report from anyone.
You would not admit to SEE occurring even if it were documented just like you cannot admit to low number Springfields being junk.

EDG, Because you think you saw and attribute to the mythical SEE, does not mean it was the cause. An event that cannot be replicated under controlled conditions by a lab or the foremost reloading expert of the 20th century is VERY suspect.
I don't know why you have such a vested interest in supporting a myth that has no support from any real ballistic's expert.

LS, you raise some interesting questions. Your core premise that small bore, fast twist rifles have a very real limit in cast boolit performance is correct. However, fast burning powders may be used safely IF proven data is followed AND the reloader is VERY careful. BUT, as you point out. there is really no reason to.

I am not chasing hyper velocity with cast boolits in rifles. 1200 - 1700 fps is the range I stay in and have yet to blow up any gun. In those cases where I chose a powder that will not overflow the case if a double charge is thrown, I inspect all charged cases with a VERY bright LED penlight. THEN I add enough coarse Cuban cornmeal to fill the case 2/3rds of the way up the neck. When the boolit is seated, the charge is compressed and stays in place. Unlike some fillers the coarse ground cornmeal does not have the danger of becoming a bore blocking "lump". In my case, these are always 33 caliber and up. Good ignition always happens, the bore gets a light scrubbing and it smells sooooo good.

[EDG]

Really??
Well how would you know if it is going to be destroyed? You have apparently have no experience either and this would be a research project to settle what is true and what is not true.
If he is right then his rifle is returned in it original condition.
And apparently he is convinced that he could never be wrong.
All he has to do is put his money where his mouth is.

Exhorting a member to send a firearm to be destroyed is about as no class as it gets.

[EDG]

My post count is not that high bubba. In fact I am a green horn here compared to many.
Some guys get banned repeatedly and as a result never get much a post count.
They keep coming back with different user names isn't that right?
You know there is this guy over at Accurate Reloading that must have had 8 or 10 user names and he has a Ruger #1 with red tinted wood...

Like I said you want fresh data from us but you want to quote 2 guys that have been dead for decades. So where is YOUR contemporary data?
The most contemporary and direct information is mine because I had the SEE type event happen and I am pretty sure I can make it happen again since I still have some of the original powder.
Why would you want a Mossberg? Some old cruddy Mauser or Carcano would be cheaper.
Go ahead and claim you made an honest attempt. I am sure you will report that nothing happened since that is the only outcome that will save face for you.
I will not be holding my breath...

EDG, I am not quoting Hatcher ONLY as a source of a myth.

As far as P.O. goes, anyone who can dispute his findings has yet to be found.

Maybe you and Larry can get together and come up with enough money with a Mossberg to blow up ?

Hamish is, of course, correct. What we have are two site big shots (as their post counts show) who are used to never having anything they say disputed. Neither can offer any contemporary support for their rehashed myths. But they really get upset when anyone points out the "Emperor's new clothes" syndrome at work.

Maybe next June when I head back to WY, I might dig around for some old whupped rifle to try a bunch of reduced loads in. It will be fun to enumerate all the loads fired and how it never blew up. LOL!

As for 20 gauge shells dropped in a 12 bore, followed by a 12 and then fired..... well it will take apart a brand new 870 too. Hey DUMMIES, ever wonder WHY 20 gauge shells are YELLOW ! DUH !!!!

[EDG]

jajajajajaja
Where are all the photos of the same old Ruger #1??
You really should clarify which Larry you are referring to.

where is Bricktop when you need him, huh Larry

[tomme boy]

Call 800-622-4366 ext 110 Mike Daley. Hodgdon powders. They call it a high pressure excursion.

[Mr Humble]

Now that I'm back, I have started a thread elsewhere asking for SEE loading data. Look forward to contributions.

[wadcutter]

Maybe I've overly conservative, but this is why I still reload on my Lyman single stage and check the fill of each case with a little flashlight after putting in the powder. After 25 years I have never found a double charge, but I feel better checking. I'm still sporting the nominal number of eyes and fingers so I must be doing something right.

[Soundguy]

Good post wadcutter, good post.

[Hamish]

Really??
Well how would you know if it is going to be destroyed? You have apparently have no experience either and this would be a research project to settle what is true and what is not true.
If he is right then his rifle is returned in it original condition.
And apparently he is convinced that he could never be wrong.
All he has to do is put his money where his mouth is.

Earlier in this thread, Larry Gibson posted wanting a rifle sent to him to be destroyed, and if I'm not mistaken, at least twice.

I stand by my earlier statement.

Exhorting a member to surrender a firearm for destruction and then making fun of that member for not doing so, in lieu of actually posting evidence to support their position is low class.

I'd like to see some actual scientific evidence posted that proves the existence of the problem, not low brow intimidation tactics.

[tomme boy]

I gave a telephone #. CALL IT!

[tomme boy]

Mr. Humble is just baiting people to get them mad. It is going to get him banned again and hopefully permanently.

[cheese1566]

Well, Mr Humble just made my ignore list. It's pretty short list , but reserved for those in need.

[Mr Humble]

Hamish, you are of course in the X ring. Tomme boy (irony eh ?) is trying to incite drama to no avail. He claims to have an inside source at Hodgen but won't share the secret with us. Probably best to ignore him to avoid justifying his existance.

I bought the new rifle to blow it up IF the SEE believers can provide me corraborated data on how they observed it done. "The world waits."