Model 96 Swedish Mauser Accident

[joatmon]

That has all the ear marks of a double charge.
If you search images around the net you will find several more Swedes that look like that. They were usually destroyed by bad ammo manufactured by PMC.

And I've got 4 box's of PMC 6.5 put back!!
Aaron

[dubber123]

And I've got 4 box's of PMC 6.5 put back!!
Aaron

Back as a teen I bought one (1) box of Hansen ammo for my 6.5 Swede. I wish I had known more about flattened and pierced primers back then.. I wasn't aware PMC had similar issues.

[swheeler]

We'll never know what happened! I suspect reloader error, but I just don't know just like the rest of you. It looks like cabin fever is setting in early in Wyomingrelax have a life is good. Nice pronghorn by the way for a doe, poor little thing.

[EDG]

I bought about 20 boxes of Hansen 6.5X55 ammo in the late 1980s and shot up most of it without incident. I still have 4 or 5 boxes to use up. Back then the only other game in town was Norma and the Hansen ammo was less expensive than Norma brass.

Back as a teen I bought one (1) box of Hansen ammo for my 6.5 Swede. I wish I had known more about flattened and pierced primers back then.. I wasn't aware PMC had similar issues.

[Mr Humble]

Mr Humble did you read the article I posted from Handloader Mag? I agree the cause is from the person pulling the trigger. BUT, it has been proven that this condition happens. Just more so in a Swede because of how they are built. Any gun can do this. Even yours. The conditions just have to be right for it to happen.

Yup I read it. May be hard to accept but even the guys who write for magazines make errors. As with the 6.5 in question and all the other pictures of blown up guns NONE have been replicated under lab conditions by SEE. I'd hazard a guess that P.O. Ackley knew more about ballistics and blowing up guns that ALL the staff of Handloader. He tried for DECADES to replicate the phantom SEE and was NEVER able to do so. You pick your experts, I'll stick with the real ones.
BTW I have a story from a much bigger magazine than Handloader that says Hillary is "Madam President". Must be true as it too was written by "experts".......

[tomme boy]

Like I said, I have a email into HP White. I will wait and see. Get it! Ha! Ha!

[Freischütz]

I think Grouchy's point "...Because the case mouth is small compared to 30 caliber, it's difficult to see the powder level ..." is important.


I use 17.0 gr of H4198 in the 6.5x55, and even when using a flashlight to look into the cases find a double charge difficult to see.

[Char-Gar]

I think Grouchy's point "...Because the case mouth is small compared to 30 caliber, it's difficult to see the powder level ..." is important.

I use 17.0 gr of H4198 in the 6.5x55, and even when using a flashlight to look into the cases find a double charge difficult to see.

Cut a piece of 1/4" dowel pin and drop it in a charged case. Mark the dowel at the case mouth and now you have a powder charge gauge for that charge. It is REAL easy to see an overcharge.

[Multigunner]

There have been experiments in producing extremely high velocities while using less propellent that centered on a large diameter case body with a hemispherical shoulder. Another was the Herter's Ram Magnum case which used a double shoulder.
Near as I can remember both used some variation on the SEE effect only controlled to prevent complete detonation of the entire charge.

[skeet1]

I was thinking about the thread and realized that My 96 Swede is going to be 100 years old in 2017. Because of it's age I am going to be extra careful when loading for it.

Ken

[jsn]

It was probably on a mil-surp site recently that in 1962 or 63 at Camp Perry, Winchester provided the 30-06 ammo loaded with H380. Numerous people were ringing their chambers using this ammo. Winchester said it wasn't their fault but offered to replace anyone's barrel. The load of H380 was somewhere around 80% of case capacity. SEE was suspected, but the barreled actions held.

I see photos occasionally of blown up M98's, it seems the receiver never comes apart on these, and the bolt is always intact and held. The barrel always seems to split in front of the receiver. IIRC, when Iraqveteren8888 blew up a Mosin Nagant on youtube, the receiver ring and the bolt still held. And they were intentionally trying to blow it up with a case full of unburned powder swept up off of the range floor.

Now we have an M96 that the receiver ring split without a bore obstruction. When Midway was selling barrels for small ring Mausers is was lower pressure rounds only like 7x57, 6.5x55, or 35 Rem. Maybe there's a reason that Kuhnhausen specifies never to use a small ring Mauser for high pressure cartridges. There doesn't appear to be much room for error.

[Mr Humble]

There have been experiments in producing extremely high velocities while using less propellent that centered on a large diameter case body with a hemispherical shoulder. Another was the Herter's Ram Magnum case which used a double shoulder.
Near as I can remember both used some variation on the SEE effect only controlled to prevent complete detonation of the entire charge.

Be looking forward to your sharing the source of these "facts" with we who believe (absent any real evidence) that it is pure BS. P.O. said so and I for one trust him more than totally undocumented assertions.

[dualsport]

Cut a piece of 1/4" dowel pin and drop it in a charged case. Mark the dowel at the case mouth and now you have a powder charge gauge for that charge. It is REAL easy to see an overcharge.

Simple. And it works.

[Multigunner]

"Be looking forward to your sharing the source of these "facts" "

Herter's double shoulder Ram Magnum cases are not that unknown. I found out about these from George P Herters own book written in 1963. I have my copy on the table right now. The front cover came off so I can't give you the title till I dig through some boxes to find the cover. The title is a long bombastic one not easy to recall.

The experiments with the hemispherical shoulder cases are something I ran across many years ago when looking for something else entirely. I remember the page had photos or drawings of the cases. Internal case geometry has well recognized effects on how powders burn, I would expect that every handloader knew that much at least.

Whenever anyone declares some safety issue to be a myth I would like for them to guarantee in writing, in a notarized legal document, that they would cover any and all damages and medical expenses for anyone who took their claim as gospel and ended up blowing up their rifle because they ignored such warnings. No one seems willing to do this so far.

Years ago I scrapped a very eroded SMLE barrel after getting flattened primers when firing mild reloads. It never occurred to me that SEE might have been a factor.
That bore was fairly slick and the bullet barely touched the lands for the first 6-8 inches. I still have that barrel which I was planning on cutting off and boring out the breech end to sleeve with a .410 barrel.
Considering the flattened primers, the same loads showing no such tendency, its probably a lucky thing that the barrel had been shortened to 20", otherwise the pressure might have gone much higher before the bullets left the muzzle and blown cases.

[Multigunner]

PS
Just looked over the scrapped SMLE barrel I mentioned and found a distinct bulge between the nocks form and position of the rear sight base. It takes quite a lot of pressure to bulge an SMLE barrel at that point. Had it reached that pressure level a few inches further up, at the cross pin hole from the sight base, the barrel would likely have separated.
The mild loads I was using filled the case about 3/4 the way full so a double charge would be out of the question.

[jsn]

To the OP:

Is it possible to get the barrel bore scoped? It would be interesting to see if there is a bulge or anything other than a pristine, unissued bore.

[Mr Humble]

Herters ? Herters ? The biggest bunch of bull **** artists who ever walked the earth. The shape of a shoulder DMS in terms of ballistics. Handloader proved this a few years ago with the same barrel, the same loads and the same results with a 300 H&H chambering and a 300 wsm chambering.

I am amazed how all you complete amatuers can produce results that Ackley nor any other recognized lab can.

Sedgley claimed that they rehardened the actions they bought as surplus from uncle sam. Customer supplied actions like the 9.3 and 400 were no messed with.

As for your legal request ...... for 20 years I had an open offer of a payment of $1000 to anyone who could produce a SHT 03, with proper headspace fired with proper ammo that "blew up". Lots of talk but NO RIFLES !

All you can do is repeat what you read somewhere with ZERO documented evidence.

Swedes don't blow up unless somebody does something dumb. Neither do SHT 03s'. Hatcher's stats prove that.

I am unsubscribing as this thread is nothing but "mine is bigger than yours'" chest beating. As Abe Lincoln said of his wife Mary: " Sometimes when you make a bad bargain, you tend to cling to it all the harder."

[JMax]

Good riddance, an individual behaving in a condescending and rude manner belittling others while providing little information other than his opinion. His behavior is consistent with a bully on an adolescent playground. What he should do is attempt to publish his findings in a reputable publication. We should have an open and fair discussion on this and other topics on this forum and not tolerate rude behavior.

[EDG]

I think you can produce that effect fairly easily.
Just get a long heavy bullet and a slow powder and start reducing the powder charge until the rifle blows up.
You can blow primers easily with the 6.5 calibers with the long heavy bullets especially the Carcano bullet.

I read Ackley for about 25 years and he did not dwell on SEE to the best I can recall. After all he was trying to make a living not do free lance research.

I have had an instance of blown primers that have to be attributable to a reduced load since the powder involved was not fast enough to result in a double charge.
The powder in question was Accurate 2495 in the 7.65 Mauser case as used in the 1891 Mauser. I blew 2 primers working up the load. Both blown primers were blown in one rifle but 2 rifles were being tested with the same loads. The second rifle did not experience the high pressures. The eventual load I worked up to was 4 grains higher than the one that blew the primers in the one rifle. I documented everything that happened in my note book and I still have the entire set of cases used including the blown cases.

Yup I read it. May be hard to accept but even the guys who write for magazines make errors. As with the 6.5 in question and all the other pictures of blown up guns NONE have been replicated under lab conditions by SEE. I'd hazard a guess that P.O. Ackley knew more about ballistics and blowing up guns that ALL the staff of Handloader. He tried for DECADES to replicate the phantom SEE and was NEVER able to do so. You pick your experts, I'll stick with the real ones.
BTW I have a story from a much bigger magazine than Handloader that says Hillary is "Madam President". Must be true as it too was written by "experts".......

[skeettx]

A flashlight is your friend in reloading
ALWAYS look before seating bullets