+P in s&w M15

[Petrol & Powder]

So my post #13 was correct, the 38/44 [Outdoorsman] was never a K-frame revolver.

I'm well aware of the history of the development of the .357 magnum cartridge and the fact that the original revolvers chambered for it were derived from the 38/44 Heavy Duty, AKA Outdoorsman, N-frames. They later became the models 27 and 28

Then, some time later, Bill Jordon came along and convinced S&W that the K-frame could be made to handle the .357 Magnum cartridge and the model 19 was born. We also got the models 13, 65 and 66 later on.

Then, the L-frames were born to address some of the problems with the Magnum K-frames and we got the 581, 586, 681 and 686.

And YES, the 38/44 Cartridge produced more pressure than a 38 Special but less than the .357 magnum that was eventually developed from the 38/44 Cartridge.

So, again, I was talking about the gun [a 38/44 Outdoorsman] and I believe you were focusing on the cartridge normally fired in that gun [the 38/44 Cartridge that is loaded beyond the normal pressures of a 38 Special cartridge].

I don't think we're that far apart. I was just pointing out that the thread was centered on a K-frame revolver, a model 15 and that the 38/44 revolver was not a K-frame.

[Walkingwolf]

What you are missing is this was never about a N frame 38/44 revolver, it is about a K frame 38 special revolver rated for +P. The OP has not mentioned a N frame 38/44, I only brought it up because the modern K frame CAN shoot limited quantities of 38/44, if it was possible to buy them, which it is not. My point was, and still is that his gun can easily digest thousands of +P with minimal wear.

Do you get it now?

[Petrol & Powder]

What you are missing is this was never about a N frame 38/44 revolver, it is about a K frame 38 special revolver rated for +P. The OP has not mentioned a N frame 38/44, I only brought it up because the modern K frame CAN shoot limited quantities of 38/44, if it was possible to buy them, which it is not. My point was, and still is that his gun can easily digest thousands of +P with minimal wear.

Do you get it now?

What I get is this is a thread about a model 15 and you brought up the 38/44 which can refer to a CARTRIDGE (the 38/44 heavy duty which is a casing of 38 Special dimensions but loaded to pressures above 38 Special) OR 38/44 can refer to the gun used to fire that cartridge (the 38/44 Outdoorsman)

When you brought up the 38/44 it appears you were talking about the CARTRIDGE.

I commented that the 38/44 was never a K-frame. I was talking about the GUN.

Like I said, we're not that far apart.

[ReloaderFred]

As long as this thread has taken a detour, we might as well clear up the fact that there were two S&W .38/44 revolvers. The Heavy Duty had fixed sights, similar to the Model 10, and the Outdoorsman had adjustable sights. Both were able to handle the .38 Special Hi-Speed ammunition intended for them.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[shooting on a shoestring]

It's never a worry about blowing up a revolver cylinder with +P loads, or hot hand loads, but frame stretching. The "wear" is the frame begins to stretch which allows the cylinder even more room to gain velocity during firing which increases the stretching at a faster rate. The point will come when the frame has stretched enough the cylinder gap gets wide and the cylinder will move forward when the hand rotates it, loosing some geometry and the DA primer strikes will start migrating towards the edge of the primers.

I believe in keeping my cylinders cushioned against the rearward thrust by keeping the star lubed with heavy weight gear oil or an STP like sticky lube. That will do more to dampen frame stretching than worrying about the height of the pressure spike during ignition.

[hardy]

Hi,you,ve got me all intrigued regarding lubing the star. I,m guessing you put the oil under the star and maybe on the ejector rod.Please enlighten me,as I,ve always thought wear was part of the game but if there,s some way of slowing it down then I,m all for it..I,ve always shot light/medium loads but eventually have suffered rotational and "endshake?" in some of my revolvers,not the Rugers I hasten to add.Thanks ,I await more info.Cheers Mike

[shooting on a shoestring]

Hardy, I use a Q-Tip dipped in the lube and wipe a daub on the outside of the star. The main idea is to cushion the cylinder when it slams into the recoil shield area of the frame. Either side would work, but on the outside the hand gets some extra lube and that's a pretty high pressure high wear area.

The cylinder works like a ball-peen hammer. It's a lot of small solid metal to metal hits that moves the metal. Cushion that with a lube that has lots of film strength and the metal doesn't get peened.

[Mike Kerr]

[QUOTE]The cylinder works like a ball-peen hammer. It's a lot of small solid metal to metal hits that moves the metal. Cushion that with a lube that has lots of film strength and the metal doesn't get peened.[QUOTE]

Sounds like a good idea.

[hardy]

Hey Folks,I thank you for your thoughts on this subject.I have to say this site is a wonderful exchange for all sorts of amazing tips.Cheers,Mike

[chill45100]

As a former PD armorer for the S&W revolver I'd like to put my two cents worth in. Before we started using +P pressure training ammo our revolvers required little PM other that a deep cleaning once a year. When we switched to using a practice load that simulated the duty, or some years we used duty ammo problems began to appear. This was in a dept. that had qualification every month and a week of range time annually and officers were encouraged to practice on their own as well. So a budget of at least 1,00 rounds per head, more if retraining was needed. Mostly of our problems were end shake both cylinder and yoke. I do not recall ever seeing a cracked frame in our model 15's, 67's, 64's, 36's or 60's. Just lots of weapons that had shot loose and needed to have the tolerances reset. After a down turn in the economy and our budget we switched to lead bullets and standard velocity reloads. At that time the amount of work on the revolvers once again was reduced. So will the K frame revolvers work with +P? Yea, but at a cost of maintenance. YMMV
Chill45100

[Texas by God]

I shoot about 50 +p a year in a Model 67 and that's whats in it now. I shoot about 500 standard velocity cast loads a year not counting what my better half shoots(it's her gun & a police trade in) That's how we'll keep doing it. Best, Thomas.