+P in s&w M15

[hiram]

I purchased a S&W Model 15-4 from a friend. Included was an almost full box of +P ammo.

The revolver is not stamped +P and I hesitate using it.

What is view?
Thanks.

[EMC45]

Same frame size as the Model 19 and 13 (.357 Mag). Should be fine to shoot the remainder of the box. They are good steel and heat treated well.

[Outpost75]

Occasional use of +P is OK, but not for a steady diet.

[rintinglen]

You can shoot it with 38 +p til the cows come home.
I have seen Police trade ins that have shot thousands of +P rounds. A 15-4 would be made between 1977 and 1982, well after the improved heat treatment that came into use post 1966 that permitted the use of +p. I suspect that you will wear out before it does.

[BattleRife]

I believe Smith and Wesson's official position is that any .38 Special revolver new enough to have a model number is new enough to handle +P ammo regularly.

[Walkingwolf]

I knew a detective 40 years ago that carried 38/44 in his model 36. He did shoot it with the hot loads at least once, no damage. The model 15 is virtually the same gun as the 19, just chambered for 38. It is unlikely that they use a different heat treating process with each model, that would drive up costs. Ruger is a good example, all their steel guns are heat treated to the same specs.

That said I would save the +P for carry, and shoot less expensive standard ammo. Personally I would have no problem carrying +P+ in both Rugers, and Smiths. I would not recommend shooting thousands of +P+, but +P should be fine.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Were it mine, and I do own a very nice one, I would not hesitate to shoot the +P rounds; but only if it was what I intended to carry in the gun on a regular basis, for the purpose of sighting it in an knowing where it would hit when fired for serious purposes. The P.O.I. being established, I'd use lighter loads for practice.

A short story. In the middle-late 1970s I knew a gunsmith and Sheriff's Sgt. who reached the same conclusion some of you have obviously reached, that a K-frame is a K-frame is a K-frame, and no difference exists between a Model 10 or 15 and a 13 or 19. They had come into possession of a stainless Mod. 10, the Mod. 64, and could see no reason why they could not bore out the cylinder chambers to allow use of .357 Magnum cartridges. They did so, successfully fired the revolver, and were so enthralled with their "development" that they bought two more and did the same thing. Now they actually became somewhat indignant that S&W would have the nerve to charge more for a Model 19 or 66 which was obviously the same gun as the 10 and 15, and had the cheek to write a letter to S&W telling them all about their experiment and how they should just sell all the K-frames to use .357 rounds and adjust (lower) their prices accordingly. Well, it didn't take long and they got a very detailed letter back from S&W's legal dept. informing them that the K-frames marked for magnum use had significantly different heat treatment that did those designated for use with the .38 Special, that they had created three potential hand grenades, that they were warned to cease their alteration of .38s to .357s immediately or face legal action. I read the letter.

So, the frames are heat treated differently.

However, a regular .38 Special +P round is below the pressure level of a .357 Mag. and should be safe for use in a K-frame in good condition. But, if I valued the gun, I would not shoot a box of them through the gun every weekend and expect the gun to last as long as one not so used.

I would stay completely away from .38 Special +P+ rounds in the .38 K-frame. These are usually sold as "Restricted for Law Enforcement Use Only" and I fired a minimum of 60 per month for years in a Mod. 66, but that is a magnum with appropriate heat treatment for magnum rounds.

[tigweldit]

I would not hesitate to shoot +P or +P+ loads in either my S&W 15-2 or 15-4. Those guns can handle it. I prefer to use .357 revolvers for the heavy loads. The model 15's love 358495's w/3.0 gr. Bulseye. And what a hoot to shoot all day long.

[Petrol & Powder]

I think it would be fine with +P rounds.

Many of the prior posts address the issue. Steel framed 38 Special S&W revolvers with model numbers are generally considered safe for +P loads.

The SAAMI max pressure for 38 Special is 17,000 psi and 20,000 psi for 38 Special +P cartridges. To put that a little into perspective, the max for .357 mag is 35,000 psi. So while +P loads are higher pressure, they're not enormously higher pressure.

NOW, I also agree with Outpost, there's no good reason to shoot a steady diet of +P cartridges through a K-frame S&W. The gun will handle the +P loads just fine. When fed standard pressure loads a model 15 will often outlast its owner. I'm not sure a steady diet of +P rounds would shorten that life significantly but why shoot +P loads all of the time if you're just putting holes in paper or ringing steel plates? I have a model 64 that I know the history of and it saw a lot of +P rounds before I got it. It's perfectly fine and seems to be no worse for the wear.

[Walkingwolf]

S&W will say anything to CYA, changing heat treatment, or having two lines is extremely dumb for production costs. Nobody in their right mind would change out production to make a less strong product. Even at one time Colt Police Positives were approved for light use of 38/44 which is hotter than +P+. Prior to the development of the model 19 there no doubt different heat treating process. +P+ will not blow a modern K frame, it will wear it out sooner, as ALL guns wear each time they are shot. ALL GUNS.

[Treeman]

As others have mentioned. Any Model numbered S&W chambered in 38 spl. should be fine with 38spl +P. Yes it will wear more..... and if you can shoot it enough to wear it significantly you should have plenty of $$ to buy another ( But hey, I don't view my guns as disposable or consumable either -I want to keep them my whole life and bless someone else with them afterward)
Not wanting to start a kerfluffle but the whole business of marking guns for +P these days is largely marketing. 38spl+P is not what it once was in pressure or performance.....except for boutique stuff like Buffalo Bore and Underwood. Certainly I do understand the PSI pressure ceilings (measured by piezo electric transducers/strain gauges are different than the older CUP ceilings.... And I understand that the two systems don't yield the same numbers thus explaining why the current pressure ceiling appears lower. However, examining lots of pressure tested data sources from both systems and factory ammo performance figures from before and after the transition leaves little doubt that some cartridges were gelded a bit in the transition. Again I understand the the new system yields more information and presumably showed that some previously approved loadings were creating some pressure oscillations etc that were more strain on the guns than presumed from measuring a copper crusher. Where all the "lawyered" accusations about some newer data appear justified, lies in the fact the new standard was not set to match loadings that had proven safe for decades but was instead set using some undisclosed criteria to where it currently resides....at lower performance levels. The bottom line is, S&W k frames were safe with 38/44 loads. They were safe with 38+P which was almost certainly lower pressure than the 38/44. They are certainly safe with the current +p which is often at the same performance as older standard pressure loads.

[Char-Gar]

The Model 15 is a favorite of mine. If you wish to shoot up the box of +P ammo go ahead, you won't notice any negative effect on your revolver.

However continue use of high pressure loading is any revolver will accelerate the wear over the wear put on the revolver from standard pressure loads. There is nothing wrong with shooting these high pressure loads, if you NEED the extra power. However how many of use really need this extra power for 99% of our shooting. If you shoot lots of high pressure loads needlessly, be aware you will pay for that somewhere down the line.

The first time I met Bill Jordan was in 1959, down on the Rio Grande River. My friend and I were shooting pistols at objects floating in the river, when Jordan another another guy rolled up in a BP Jeep. After a little talk, he joined us and offered me the chance to shoot his Smith and Wesson Combat Magnum. He dropped the cylinder open and removed some real bad magnum handloads with cast hollow points backed by a charge of 2400 that would be way over book today. He removed some 38 Special target wadcutters from the Jeep and we shot most of the box that afternoon. We were teenagers and he offered us his counsel on handgun shooting before going on his way down the river.

What I learned from that is you don't shoot high pressure loads unless there is a real need to do so.

[Petrol & Powder]

The 38/44 revolvers were not K-frames.

[Walkingwolf]

The 38/44 revolvers were not K-frames.

At one time Colt advertised the Colt Detective Special, and Police Positive Special were 38/44 approved. There were period ads at the time for K frame 38/44 approved. IIRC Smiths are proofed to 50K cup, a constant diet of 38/44 would shoot a medium/small frame revolver loose, but for carry it was safe. I knew a detective that shot a perp in an ER that was holding a knife to a nurses neck. He was using factory 38/44 in a model 36. No damage, or even wear could be found from the limited use.

ALL guns wear when fired, all of them. Higher pressures accelerate wear, so a less than heavy frame revolver will wear out sooner than the heavy frame with the same ammo. Guns in good condition are safe to fire with high pressure ammo, but should not be subjected to a constant diet. Model 19's were known for forcing cone damage with excessive use of 357 loads with light weight bullets. Smith built the L frame to hold up to a steady diet of hot ammo. Lately they have been building again model 66 because some want the slightly lighter frame.

Personally I carry a GP100 38 model loaded with my 38/44 handloads, but if I could find a Service Six over the GP that would be my carry because of the slightly lighter weight. I carry the same ammo in my six inch 357 GP. The 38/44 uses slightly less powder than a 357 for the same pressures, which for me results in less muzzle flash.

But the OP did not ask about 38/44, I only brought it up because I knew several officers used it when it was available, in both K frames, and J frames. Unless the OP handloads he is not likely to find any affordable vintage 38/44.

[dubber123]

It is true +P will wear a gun quicker, physics are physics. A lot of the +P phobia is just laughable. I highly doubt 3,000 extra Psi is going to amount to a whole lot of extra wear on a properly maintained gun.

I offer this; my first "good" gun was a S&W M10 with the tapered barrel, a used police trade in. I started shooting it in earnest as a teenager. I found a load that shot VERY well. That load was 5.0 grains of Unique with a Hornady wadcutter seated flush. I don't recommend this load, and don't suggest you use it. I shot very well, and extended the range of the wadcutter noticeably. I have no doubt after gaining some more loading knowledge that this is AT LEAST a +P load. I kept track of my primer boxes to keep tabs on shots fired. That plain old blued steel M10 has at least 36,000 rounds of that load, plus other more adventurous ones down the tube. I kept it cleaned and lubed religiously. I still have it 20+ years later, and it's still tight, and shoots as good as ever. Maybe I got lucky, but I kinda doubt it

[Lloyd Smale]

yes sir. A model 19 is the same exact gun and it handles 357s. thing is though the real fun with a 15 is target loads.

You can shoot it with 38 +p til the cows come home.
I have seen Police trade ins that have shot thousands of +P rounds. A 15-4 would be made between 1977 and 1982, well after the improved heat treatment that came into use post 1966 that permitted the use of +p. I suspect that you will wear out before it does.

[Petrol & Powder]

Walkingwolf, I don't doubt what you said, I'm just pointing out that the 38/44 revolver wasn't a K-frame S&W.

You're talking about the cartridge [38/44 which is basically a high pressure 38 Special cartridge] and I'm talking about the gun [N-frame S&W chambered in 38 Special that could handle the heavier load].
Because this thread is talking about a Model 15, which is a K-frame, I was simply pointing out that the 38/44 (Outdoorsman) revolver is not a K-frame.

[Walkingwolf]

Walkingwolf, I don't doubt what you said, I'm just pointing out that the 38/44 revolver wasn't a K-frame S&W.

You're talking about the cartridge [38/44 which is basically a high pressure 38 Special cartridge] and I'm talking about the gun [N-frame S&W chambered in 38 Special that could handle the heavier load].
Because this thread is talking about a Model 15, which is a K-frame, I was simply pointing out that the 38/44 (Outdoorsman) revolver is not a K-frame.

No it wasn't originally~~The S&W Heavy Duty was the brainchild of Elmer Kieth using loads hotter than 357 with weaker steel. S&W developed the gun using the frame they had tailored to original Kieth loads. The factory 38/44 loads were under 357 pressure, and as experimented went on it became apparent the smaller frames would handle limited use. Hence the advertising that Colt small frames, and Smith K frames were approved for LIMITED use.

That being said the OP's gun will take thousands of +P, and still be a sound revolver. It will though wear out, even with target wadcutters, though it will take considerable more hours to wear out than with higher pressure loads. The OP most likely will not be shooting 38/44 considering he is shy about +P. But he can be confident that a box of +P is not going to wear out his gun to the point it is noticeable.

If I did not handload I would shoot standard most the time, and carry with Buffalo Bore +P. But even target wadcutters will get the job done in SD with the proper placement.

[Petrol & Powder]

No it wasn't originally..................

.

WHAT wasn't originally ?

Please clarify.

[Walkingwolf]

WHAT wasn't originally ?

Please clarify.

Not sure what you are wanting, originally the 38/44 was developed in a~~wait for it~~ N FRAME. So it was marketed in an N frame, and Colt marketed it in the 41 caliber frame(Trooper, Python). Originally there were no 357 J frame Smiths, now there is. After time it was realized that the reduced factory loads(not as hot as Keith loads) could be safely fired in lighter revolvers in a very limited quantity. Even the light framed police positive.

Again this is really not about the OP using 38/44 in a K frame, it is about using +P in a K frame safely even thousands of rounds. The fact that the K frame CAN handle 38/44 should give him comfort in using the +P.