Alternatives to Corbin Die$ ???

[BulletFactory]

32$/hr seems a little low.

[clodhopper]

If quality, affordable, dies were to be made via CNC, electronic discharge machining, or EDM may be the process that get's there.
This process is not affected by work material hardness.

Nobody is going to make swage dies with out the buyers paying enough for the maker to support their families, shop expenses, and shooting habit.

[tiger762]

Look for a used set of CH4D #101 swage dies. It is a 2-die set made to be used on a reloading press. The first die does two things: compresses the lead core into the jacket (swelling out the jacket to near finished diameter) and bleeds off excess lead through a TINY hole in the concave punch. MUST be using pure lead for any expectation of that process to work. Best to just size the lead cores to weight beforehand. The second die puts the point form on it, and finishes it out to diameter. The profile CH4D uses is a "round nose flat point" that some folks like but I prefer the Spitzer style or at least a round nose. Heck, you could even be creative and use certain reloading dies to make marginal swaged rounds. Just confirm the diameter of the finished product. They may look as ugly as homemade sin, but they'll shoot.

About 15 years ago I got a CH4D set in 44cal. To swage, you need a platform that can reach 10,000 psi. If you double the bullet diameter, you increase FOUR-FOLD the amount of force needed to reach a given pressure. I was using it on an RCBS Ammomaster. It was adequate for the job but not ideal. Bolted to a workbench I made out of 2x12's for the table top and 4x4's for the legs. In 2000 the set was $114 and included choice of SP or HP punch (in the point form die). Last year they did another run of dies. I got a 38cal set for $225 and it included both punches.

So there are ways to get into swaging inexpensively and if you find you like it (the boredom might be unbearable ) you can step up to incrementally more expensive equipment, selling off the old stuff. Predictably, when CH4D made their run of dies last year, the old/used #101 die sets mysteriously go up for sale close to the price of the new sets. My $114 set from 2000 I could have literally *made* money off of, as odd as that sounds.

Next step up for me was RCECO. I started with a Walnut Hill press, 224 3-die set, 224 jacket maker (from fired 22LR), reloading adapter (not needed to swage), a small tub of swage lube (lanolin and castor oil) and a spool of 3/16" lead wire. I believe it was $1100, out the door. Have since added 452, 458, 510, 550 RCE die sets. The 3-die sets are $542 and are quite reasonable. I am sure he could charge more and it not affect the huge backlog of orders he's buried under right now.

So that's what I recommend is to find a used CH4D set and see if it is even something you want to pursue. If you submit your C&R FFL to places that sell reloading components to get dealer/volume pricing, you'll see there's barely any savings to be had even if the swaging equipment were FREE.

I just submitted an order to a well-known reloading component house for some ARMSCOR 40gr 224 JHP's for $104/2000. RCECO has 0.600" 224 jackets for $440/10000 and the extruded lead wire would work out to around 1.4 cents per round. It's cheaper to just buy the ARMSCOR bullets. Now for 458's and 510's? THAT is where you'll see savings.

[PAT303]

Don't any of you move to Australia if you think your prices are high.I bought BT's .224 swag die set because simple cheap 55grns are $25+ a hundred,.308 projies like Sierra 168grn go $60-$80 per 100.My biggest problem is time and the initial up front costs,I'd love BT's .30 die set because I'd save money,around 50% and thats after the exchange rate that add's approx $900Aus to BT's price.

[BulletFactory]

I didnt know you were allowed to own bullets.

[dverna]

I have looked at making bullets a couple of times and could never justify the cost and learning curve. The Sierra GameKing bullets shoots into less than 1 MOA, so I purchased a lifetime supply (500) for $150. For inexpensive practice, cast bullets are good enough and should give longer barrel life anyway.

Most of my shooting and plinking is done with 9mm in the pistol and .38/.357 in both pistol and rifle. Neither require jacketed bullets.

I bought 6000 Hornady .224 55 gr SP for about $400 from Monmouth when they had them on sale. I have not shot them yet but if I get 1 MOA, they will be more than adaquate. I have a mold for the .224 as well but have not tried it yet.

At my age, mid 60's, there is little chance of shooting enough to break even on good bullet making equipment. For someone in their 30's, or a high volume shooter, it could be a good investment.

I agree with most here who understand that limited volume, custom or semi custom dies will be expensive. For many, even if the equipment was 1/2 the current market cost, there would be limited appeal.

Don Verna

[Microgun]

I have to agree with bullet factory. Its not rocket science. Its basic machining

[Microgun]

Im just beginning my journey into bullet swaging. And already i've come to the conclusion that a metal lathe would be a better investment. I can lathe turn bullets or make dies to swage them

[GerryM]

Sorry to disagree It is not basic machine work
Quality dies take time and they are EDM machined and had lapped to .0001 ten thous The punches are a perfect match to the point die The core swage is the easiest But the core seater die has to be pretty much spot on The punches are done on a centerless grinder and very hard.
The die bodies are a good fit to have a decent alignment to work properly They have a custom ram with a nut that hold the punch The press has to be sturdy enough to not flex/

[runfiverun]

time consuming is right.
I have spent about 5-6 hrs a day the last 3+ weeks making 223 projectiles.
I have made about 7-K bullets in that time.
pouring the cores, swaging the cores, seating the cores, point forming and final cleaning the lube off.
I am about sick of pulling the handle on a press and I haven't even started processing brass yet.
I have about 5-K more jackets to go.
so the next couple of days will be spent casting cores, then the whole handle pulling process will start over again.


I need to get some of those .600 jackets.

[BulletFactory]

When you'e caught up you miss it though. At least I do.

[runfiverun]

kind of.
I have a bunch of other calibers to do too, I just got a good buy on a bunch of .650 jackets a while back and figured I better get them made up.
I go through about 450-500 rounds a year shooting varmints and stuff so having these made up will last me a while. [depending on how many of the kids decide to go with me]
I do need to start working on some 30 cal stuff pretty soon though, I used all but 3 of them up on the deer hunt this year.

and I'm getting waaaay behind on the casting and reloading I need to get done.

[Faret]

Put those kids to work!

[bruce drake]

62K a year without overtime for a guy "just welding"... supervisor is appropriately higher. Your posts just sound like you like to text to create an argument. That usually gets most people on the ignore line. Congratulations, you just did.

[Hickory]

My 2¢ on getting setup swaging.
If you're a young man of 30 years or younger, and shoot a lot, buy the best outfit out there that will do the job. Even $2000.00 is not a high price for the ability to make your own bullets and as many as you want.
You can even sell off some bullets from time to time to make a little cash. I gave away about 2000 bullets here on this site a year ago that were overruns and I did not want them. I guess I could have sold them.
I know people who will think nothing of buying an old junk car for $2-3 thousand dollars, knowing it may only last a couple of years, but will cringe at the through of buying a swaging outfit for the same price or less, that will last a lifetime and give you joy and satisfaction using it.
I convinced a friend to get an outfit for swaging .224 caliber bullets and he now has a reason to retire, where, before he didn't know what he would do with himself if he retired. He has it paid off and is having a good time doing something over the winter besides setting iin the house watching TV.
Swaging is an investment, not money spent.

[ncbearman]

I was hoping to get into swaging, but when I started looking at the price list at Corbin, I was left with the same feeling you get when you get a speeding ticket or having to pay your taxes.Is there a better source for dies that do a good job, yet dont cost more than a rifle?I would buy a lathe and learn how to use it for less cost than it would cost for just the jacked die. They wanted almost 1400$ for it ! !

Try these guys. I bought the .45 set and am happy with the results. Not match quality but it sure is fun to feed Dad's WWII Colt with it. Very nice groups and the steel rings real nice too.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...101-swage-dies

[dverna]

time consuming is right.
I have spent about 5-6 hrs a day the last 3+ weeks making 223 projectiles.
I have made about 7-K bullets in that time.
pouring the cores, swaging the cores, seating the cores, point forming and final cleaning the lube off.
I am about sick of pulling the handle on a press and I haven't even started processing brass yet.
I have about 5-K more jackets to go.
so the next couple of days will be spent casting cores, then the whole handle pulling process will start over again.

I need to get some of those .600 jackets.

Read this fellows. One of the guys who has his act together has spent 75-100 hours to produce 7000 bullets....and he is "sick of pulling the handle ". Factor in the cost of jackets and lead.....maybe $400 for 6000 factory bullets is not too bad after all.

Grant it this is the worst case. There are plenty of cheap .224 bullets out there, and it probably takes the same amount of time to produce a .224 varmint bullet as a .308 hunting bullet. Anyway, it pays to work the numbers and get real data from guys who have done it before plunging into bullet making.

There are only four reasons to make bullets. To save money, or get better quality, to get something you cannot buy, and/or to be self-sufficient.

Don Verna

[mckenziedrums]

Actually the fifth reason is because you enjoy it.

[Bent Ramrod]

You do have to be fascinated by the swaging process, for sure. Even back before jackets became higher priced than bulk bullets, this was the case.

R5R illustrates an important point, if time is also money to the prospective swager. That $1100 die set is going to crank out bullets at a blistering rate between 1/3 and 1/2 the production rate of a good single cavity boolit mould, depending on what is used for cores.

When Corbin first offered his .22RF cases-to-swaged-bullet dies and core mould for $79.95, I dove on the deal. I'd read the Handloader's Digests and seen what bullet swage dies were going for. At the time, .22 jacketed bullets were about $2.50 a box of 100. Forty or 45 boxes of swaged bullets would totally amortize the tooling and associated costs, I told myself. That was forty years ago; I may have done 45 boxes in the interval, but somehow I doubt it. I have to be "in the mood" to swage bullets, and I can't figure out how the manufacturers sell theirs so cheaply. I've bought more than 45 boxes of their bullets since getting the dies, for sure.

By the way, Corbin wrote later that he hired an accountant to handle his expanding business, and after a look at the receipts the guy asked Corbin why he didn't just stand out on the street corner, handing out dollar bills to passersby. It would have been just as remunerative, and a lot less effort. The dies started going up in price after that, really quickly.

People airily toss around these acronyms, CNC, EDM, blah-blah-blah, to justify the notion that the die maker can just load a hopper with stock, push a button, and go have a beer and watch TV while the dies come rolling off the production line. This isn't the way it works. Fred Huntington said his first die set was so easy to make that he decided to make a bunch of them for sale. He made a bunch of them all right--nine more die sets before he got another usable one. Perhaps the guy who bought die set No. 10 was outraged at what "it" cost, but I doubt it. Most of the experimental shooters in those days were gunsmiths, machinists and tool-and-die makers themselves, and actually knew the time and effort it takes to make something right. In terms of specialty training and experience, criticality and lack of forgiveness in tolerances, bullet swage dies are Rocket Science.

I see you live in Oakland County, BulletFactory. I grew up in the village of Rochester (now Rochester Hills) and went to Oakland University. Last time I was up there, I couldn't recognize the place. The urbanization is incredible.

[runfiverun]

swaging is not for everybody, just like casting is not for everybody.
it is a commitment to actually get things finished, and the only satisfaction you get is not until you completely throw away your carefully crafted product.
there is something to be said about putting in the time to manipulate a bullet to make it perform like you want it to in the field.
varmint shooting requires some manipulations to the bullet as much as big game hunting does.
but usually in the opposite direction.
only you can't go too far in either direction or you lose either accuracy or terminal performance.

I wish I could figure out how Hornady gets that interlock ring in their jackets.
but there is a satisfaction in sitting down at the bench and shooting 10 of your completely hand crafted from start to finish bullets.[from making the ingots from crud junk lead alloy all the way through to the final step of seating that bullet in a case you manipulated to best fit your rifle]
and they are all touching each other when you fire that last one.
and they are all using less than 1/2 of that little white circle down there at 100yds.
or when that Buck just folds up at the shot.
or when you win the longest piece in the impromptu varmint part launching contest.

you might not get to say it to anyone very often but you do get to say YES,, I MADE THAT.