Kudos to Cast Pics Staff! 310 Die Codes Decoded

[Green Frog]

The staff at Cast Pix, at my request, has fixed an incomplete posting of an article I wrote and had submitted years ago to their predecessor. It shows the die codes arranged numerically so you can find out readily what that unknown die is used for. It does not address adaptor rings nor priming die numbers... but those are available elsewhere. However, if demand is sufficient, I'll try to get those added as well.

If you wish to find the meaning of the code number on your 310 die, here's how to get the answer; First, click on the CASTPICS banner at the bottom of this page, then click on the tab marked "The Bench." Next click on the line for "The Lyman 310 Tool" and finally the line for "Ideal Dies and Loading Tools Decoded." This will get you to the newly posted pdf file of the article containing the most complete chart of die numbers I have been able to assemble. If anyone can fill in any of the blank spots, please let me know and I'll happily add to our database.

Meanwhile, kudos to the Cast Pix administrator who did this for us. Not very many folks have access to the article in the 15 year old issue of The Single Shot Rifle Journal in which I had originally had it published, so it's nice to make it more widely available.

Regards,
Charlie Shaeff
aka Green Frog

[jrmartin1964]

Mr. Frog, I have a few blanks to fill in for you:

I have seen the following die numbers reported, but I have been unable to confirm them through Ideal and/or Lyman publications:
26 - .32 Ideal, Paper Patched
40 - .38 Long, Inside Lubricated
43 - .38-40 Remington-Hepburn
49 - .38-40 Remington (Remington's version of the .38 WC.F., having a different bullet shape)
65 - .40-70 Remington, Bottle Neck
73 - .42-77-330 Russian "Adjustable"
79 - .44-40 Marlin (as with No.49 above, simply Marlin's version of the .44 W.C.F. cartridge but a different bullet shape)
85 - .44-90 Bottle Neck (not specified whether Sharps, or Remington Special)
111 - .50 U.S. Carbine
135 - .45-70 Wood Shot
140 - .43 Spanish, and 11mm (I am assuming 11mm Mauser was intended, but it was not specified)

These I have been able to verify, mostly from Ideal Handbook No.29:
32 - .32-35 Stevens (your chart has this as ".32-35 S&W")
38 - .38 Short (presumably the Colt cartridge, but not specified)
41 - .38 Extra Long
70 - .41 Short, Outside Lubricated
71 - .41 Long, Outside Lubricated
148 - .44 Evans (presumably the longer "New Model" cartridge)

I also noticed, as you mention in your footnotes, that many of the die numbers were used for other cartridges - most often very similar to the original, but one noted exception is the use (in Handbook No.39) of Die No.7 - previously used for .25-20 S.S. (as well as .22-3000 Lovell, and .22 K-Lovell) - for .308 Winchester!

[Green Frog]

WOW! This is the largest trove of "new" numbers I've EVER gotten at one time since I started working on this list over 20 years ago. Thank you very much for a major contribution, jrmartin1964. I'll submit an expanded version of chart to the Cast Pics staff as soon as I can incorporate all of the numbers into my "master" chart and ask them to update the posting. If it will be easier for purposes of posting, do I have your permission to repost (with acknowledgement, of course) onto Cast Pics your posting so that it can be put up immediately?

Regards,
Froggie

[jrmartin1964]

Froggie, you are quite welcome. I have been tracking down the old Ideal and Lyman die numbers for just over 11 years now, and I know from first-hand experience just how difficult it can be to fill in the blanks. You absolutely have my permission to repost any information you may care to from my post.

I'm glad I was able to help.
Jim

[Green Frog]

Jim,

Thanks... I've submitted a copy of your post to the CastPics staff, so we'll see how it goes. Meanwhile, I've made the changes and additions in my personal file copy of the chart. It's getting closer to done, and it appears that whatever is left will be very obscure calibers that were only made for a very short time. The quest continues!

Froggie

[jrmartin1964]

I have found a few cartridges listed in Lyman/Ideal handbooks dating between 1929 and 1948 where no number was given for dies:
.32 Long, Inside Lubricated - available in the No.4 tool (non-adjustable); listed in the die reference chart, but no die number given;
.32 Short, Inside Lubricated - available in the No.4 tool (non-adjustable); listed in the die reference chart, but no die number given;
.40-370 Sharps - available in the No.3 tool; listed in the die reference chart, but no die number given;
.50-110 Winchester - available in the No.3 tool; listed in the die reference chart, but no die number given;
.25 (.30-06) Special - available in the No.10 tool; not listed in the die reference chart;
.30 Magnum - available in the No.10 tool; not listed in the die reference chart; and
.35 Magnum - available in the No.10 tool; not listed in the die reference chart (.350 Griffin & Howe Magnum).

By my reckoning, the list of Lyman and Ideal die numbers should now be approximately 85%, with only these numbers "still out there" and yet to be found: 1, 2, 6, 18, 23, 25, 35, 36, 47, 55, 64, 69, 75, 76, 81, 94, 103, 104, 106, 108, 109, 110, 115, 136, 139, 167, and 175 (assuming this number was used). I still have a few remaining holes in my accumulation of Ideal and Lyman Handbooks, but I'm not optimistic of turning up many - if any - more die numbers from the missing ones. Like you, I believe it will only get harder from this point to fill in the remaining gaps, but the search will go on. Should I turn up anything new, I'll be sure to keep you up to date. Happy hunting!

Jim


Added:
.32 Long, I.L., and .32 Short, I.L. were likely never assigned die numbers, as they were only available in the No.4 non-adjustable tool;
.25 (.30-06) Special was an early wildcat, later standardized as the .25-06;
.30 Magnum was later known as the .300 H.&H. (assigned die no. 168 by 1939);
.50-110 Winchester - I have seen die number 112 (.50-100-450 Winchester) mentioned in reference to this cartridge, but have not seen anything from Ideal or Lyman that would verify this assertion.
I'm still working to sort out exactly which Sharp's cartridge the ".40-370" was.

[Green Frog]

Jim,

I'd hazard a guess that the 40-370 designation indicated a 370 gr bullet, but have no info on the charge. Usually when I have seen the bullet weight listed it was the last of THREE numbers given, with charge weight, usually a BP charge, in the middle. Back to your die, though... I don't think 370 gr is all that heavy for the caliber.

Froggie

[BrassMagnet]

Mr. Frog, I have a few blanks to fill in for you:

I have seen the following die numbers reported, but I have been unable to confirm them through Ideal and/or Lyman publications:
26 - .32 Ideal, Paper Patched
40 - .38 Long, Inside Lubricated
43 - .38-40 Remington-Hepburn
49 - .38-40 Remington (Remington's version of the .38 WC.F., having a different bullet shape)
65 - .40-70 Remington, Bottle Neck
73 - .42-77-330 Russian "Adjustable"
79 - .44-40 Marlin (as with No.49 above, simply Marlin's version of the .44 W.C.F. cartridge but a different bullet shape)
85 - .44-90 Bottle Neck (not specified whether Sharps, or Remington Special)
111 - .50 U.S. Carbine
135 - .45-70 Wood Shot
140 - .43 Spanish, and 11mm (I am assuming 11mm Mauser was intended, but it was not specified)

These I have been able to verify, mostly from Ideal Handbook No.29:
32 - .32-35 Stevens (your chart has this as ".32-35 S&W")
38 - .38 Short (presumably the Colt cartridge, but not specified)
41 - .38 Extra Long
70 - .41 Short, Outside Lubricated
71 - .41 Long, Outside Lubricated
148 - .44 Evans (presumably the longer "New Model" cartridge)

I also noticed, as you mention in your footnotes, that many of the die numbers were used for other cartridges - most often very similar to the original, but one noted exception is the use (in Handbook No.39) of Die No.7 - previously used for .25-20 S.S. (as well as .22-3000 Lovell, and .22 K-Lovell) - for .308 Winchester!

There must be some confusion on #148.

One of our members has a MR die marked 148 which would fit a 7mm bottleneck cartridge.
Could Lyman/Ideal have recycled the number?

[jrmartin1964]

There must be some confusion on #148.

One of our members has a MR die marked 148 which would fit a 7mm bottleneck cartridge.
Could Lyman/Ideal have recycled the number?

I would not doubt that some of the number may have gotten recycled along the way. However, the chart in Handbook No.29 does very plainly show No.148 for the .44 Evans. My own research has turned up at least one occasion where the die numbers "jumped caliber": From 1929 through 1949, die serial No.7 was used for the .25-20 Single Shot cartridge. In 1951, the number was used for the .22-3000 2R Lovell cartrodge, as well as for the .22 K-Lovell cartridge. From 1940 through 1949, the serial for the .22-3000 had been No.173, and in 1953 it was returned to that number. I only found the .22 K-Lovell listed in 1951, with no serials for that cartridge before or after that year. However, in 1953 serial No.7 was assigned to the .308 Winchester cartridge, which by 1955 had been changed to "308W".

I did find it somewhat odd that the .44 Evans was numbered at 148, which if the numbers were assigned somewhat sequentially (after a certain time, as with the mould cherry numbers), then the .44 Evans was not added to the die line-up until well into the 20th Century - after such cartridges as .38 Special, .30-06, .45 A.C.P., and .401 Winchester S.L. had been included.

The numbers seem to have been originally assigned roughly in ascending size of caliber - with a few exceptions - up to No.114 or 115, and beyond that numbers appear to have been assigned more-or-less sequentially as new cartridges were added. From the information I've been able to gather there were either numbers that were never used, or some not-so-popular cartridges were simply dropped and the number never reassigned.

As with all other things Ideal and Lyman, I suppose there are some details that may never be known or fully understood.

[dsh1106]

Green Frog - jrmartin1964

Sent you info to further your lists.