Dangerous game, High BHN Help!!!!!!!!

[Honeybadger]

Hey guys, I'm new here. And I am also new to casting bullets, so please forgive in advance the stupid questions that I am undoubtedly going to ask. I'm looking to learn how to make an alloy that has a high BHN, 22-25 would be good. I am trying to mimic the SUPER HARD CAST bullets that are used by the small Ammo companies such as Buffalo Bore, Garrett, etc, etc, etc. Is it possible to achieve that BHN for extreme penetration, and not have the bullet be brittle?? Can anyone help me out with some recipes that would suit my needs. By the way, I have around 50 or so lbs of Wheel Weights, and 50 lbs of pure Linotype at my disposal right now.......I know I'll need other stuff as well......I just wanted you to know what I've already got to work with.

[DougGuy]

What caliber, what gun, and what game? I could be mistaken but Lyman #2 water dropped or COWW water dropped will come close to BHN22.

Btw, welcome to the forum, and Happy Thanksgiving!

[Oklahoma Rebel]

how could both lyman no 2 and ww harden to the same bhn?

[Honeybadger]

Ruger Super Redhawk..........44 Magnum...........and the bullets I would use this alloy for would be with the intention of getting maximum penetration from a bullet such as an SSK.........I would use on Deer occasionally, given certain circumstances...........but would be used otherwise for large hogs or bear. Thanks for the welcome, and Happy Thanksgiving to you as well!

[Honeybadger]

Also, forgive my ignorance..........but what is COWW water dropped.........I assume it involves wheel weights??

[Ken in Iowa]

Also, forgive my ignorance..........but what is COWW water dropped.........I assume it involves wheel weights??

Yes, clip on wheel weight metal.

Water dropping means the boolits are dropped from the mould into water. This hardens them more than air cooling.

To reduce brittleness in hard boolits, add tin to match the percentage of antimony. Lyman #2 is a classic for hunting with 5% tin, 5% antimony and 90% lead. You can make it from the COWW and Linotype that you have now with a little tin added.

[Yodogsandman]

Clip On Wheel Weights (COWW) can be heat treated in an oven and quenched in cold water to 22-23 BHN. Heat treating only changes the BHN and not the merits of the alloy. This would be a more ductile alloy than linotype.

See this LASC Article about heat treating...

http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

Here's one on alloys, too...

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm

[paul h]

About a decade ago I sent some 0.476" 460 gr wfn's I cast from ww's and dropped from the mold into a 5 gal bucket (~18 bhn) to a guy who was going to the Linebaugh Seminar where people get together and try various loads from handguns and rifles to compare penetration. That year they were shooting into wet newsprint for one test, and a ~2" leg bone followed by newsprint for another test.

The guy I sent the bullets to shot a Ruger 480 SRH same I as I do, and was getting 1100 fps with the 460's, same as mine chronoed.



The bullet on the left penetrated 48" of wet newsprint, the bullet on the right 2" of wet newsprint, 2" of bone and as I recall another 10" of newsprint.

I wished I'd made a copy of the results from that years tests, but that bullet at 1100 fps out penetrated most handgun and rifle loads, and the few loads that beat it from the 454, 475 and 500 only had a few inches more penetration.

You don't need a super hard bullet, you don't need super high velocity, but you do need bullet weight.

I have a friend who hunted Africa with a pair of customized Redhawks in 44 mag. He used the SSK bullets and was not happy with the performance on game. They penetrate well enough, but due to the small meplat they don't do as much damage as a good ogival wadcutter i.e. LFN or WFN shape.

If I was looking to maximize the performance of the 44 mag I'd split the difference between an LFN and WFN meplat, design the nose to fill the throat of the SRH cylinder and pick a weight of 330-350 gr.

Here's what such a bullet scaled up to 0.476" weighing 400 gr looks like for the 480.



Second from the right next to the 460 gr WFN, and both as loaded below.

[runfiverun]

high antimony means high brittle, it's not uncommon for them to break when you crimp them.
if you mix your clip on ww's 3 parts to 1 part linotype and add 2% more tin you'll be close to #2 alloy but with a touch more antimony and a little less tin.
this is the alloy I use when I want to drive things hard and fast, it also helps insure deep penetration and a good grip on the rifling.

Travis:
Tin retards the water quenching's affect.

[Honeybadger]

Thanks guys....all great stuff so far, please keep the advice coming!!!!!!

[Honeybadger]

Runfiverun, would I water drop/heat treat that alloy after casting??

[Outpost75]

Go to the library and find an article by George Martin in American Rifleman, mid 1980s, entitled Cast Bullets in Africa. He used heat treated wheelweight bullets in the .375 H&H for Kudu, Warthog and Cape Buffalo. Full charge loads.

[jsizemore]

Linotype will get you 22bhn but will be brittle, which has already been mentioned. The recipe that R5R gave you will air cool at 15bhn and water drop/heat treat at 22bhn but will hang together much more better then straight lino.

[Outpost75]

If you want a hard, but ductile bullets which will expand, but stay together, use 1 part of wheel weights to 5 pounds of plumber's lead, then heat treat in oven at 475 degs. F for six hours to put all the antimony into solid solution when water quenched within 5 secs. of removal from oven. When cool enough to handle bag the wet bullets into a Ziplock and put into the deep freeze and cold soak for 14 days minimum, then remove from freezer and let slowly come to room temp, dry, size, apply GC and lube. Good for 22-24 BHN and will expand like JSPs with 80% weight retention at 2200 fps.

[DougGuy]

If you want a hard, but ductile bullets which will expand, but stay together, use 1 part of wheel weights to 5 pounds of plumber's lead, then heat treat in oven at 475 degs. F for six hours to put all the antimony into solid solution when water quenched within 5 secs. of removal from oven. When cool enough to handle bag the wet bullets into a Ziplock and put into the deep freeze and cold soak for 14 days minimum, then remove from freezer and let slowly come to room temp, dry, size, apply GC and lube. Good for 22-24 BHN and will expand like JSPs with 80% weight retention at 2200 fps.

Somehow I am lost on the virtue of this treatment when one could do basically the same thing with air cooled 50/50+2% right? I mean granted 50/50 will likely lead the bore at 2200fps but you will get the same expansion and it will not fragment so what would benefit from this heat treating then water drop then deep freezing process?

[runfiverun]

not really.
the way outpost describes gives maximum hardness but with the ability to retain maximum malleability.
he is working over the antimonial matrix and 'freezing' the internal alloy so you don't have antimonial crystal migration.
one of the things arsenic does is work as a grain refiner as well as work as a precipitator for the antimony.

that's seriously getting the most from the least right there

the alloy I describe is geared towards penetration and weight retention, and is based on what he has on hand.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive shot THOUSANDS of big bore bullets cast out of lineotype into game and penetration testing and never seen one fracture. Ive seen small bore bullets pushed at rifle velocitys do it though. Ive shot two buffalo know with lineotype bullets and never found a scrap of lead in them. Now I have seen water dropped ww bullets fracture. Mostly swcs and they tend to loose there nose. We had a rash of them at one linebaugh seminar in a penetration test and ive seen it happen myself with my bullets. At the same seminar my 5.5 inch bisley 44 took 3rd place in the penetration testing agains so formitable rifles and handguns using a 340 grain lfn cast out of 5050 ww/lino at about 1200 fps.(don't ask the load, it was stout) All said and done if I was going to tackle game bigger then 500 lbs with a handgun the bullet would be idealy cast out of 5050 ww/lineotype and air cooled. you will have a tough enough bullet for any dutys and gain a bit of weight over a harder bullet.

[jeepyj]

Threads like this one are the reason I hang out on this site. even though today I'm not looking to accomplish the same thing as the OP, I sure do enjoy reading the amazing posts from you folks who been there done that. It helps us who are still absorbing the knowledge!
Jeepyj

[Honeybadger]

You guys are giving me such good info!!!!! I'm really grateful....I'll be trying it all, keep it coming.....I'll be printing it all out, and saving it for reference!!!!!!!

[Outpost75]

Somehow I am lost on the virtue of this treatment when one could do basically the same thing with air cooled 50/50+2% right? I mean granted 50/50 will likely lead the bore at 2200fps but you will get the same expansion and it will not fragment so what would benefit from this heat treating then water drop then deep freezing process?

The heat treated doesn't lead, and gives adequate hardness to load up to full jacketed velocity without sacrificing ductility.
Dig out some of the old American Rifleman articles by Dennis Marshall.