1885 Winchester Miroku

[grizzly]

I have finally lived to my dream of owning one of these in a 45-70 as indicated in another thread. While pondering the purchase of it I also got a 1875 Pedersoli too.

Anyway, I thought I would load up some plinking ammo that I use in my 1895's and in the 1874. Load it conservative and I'm running the DC 457-340-F bullet. Seating it right to the crimp ring it will barely chamber. I'm having to seat it a little deeper that all my other 45-70 loads. This is yielding a COAL of 2.430", and this is leaving rifling marks on the bullet. I do not have a chamber depth guage but a uncrimped / unprimed dummy will seat at 2.450.

I'm beginning to think that something is not right with the chamber on this. Anyone concur? I've yet to fire the rifle yet, just cleaned the bore.

Anyone with experience with one of these 1885 Miroku rifles? Do they inherently have shallow chambers?

[country gent]

ALot of the chambers cut for the black powder rounds have no throat the lead comes right off the case mouth at 2*-10* that makes for a shorter overal length. Do a chamber cast of them and this is probably what you will find. I perfer this style chamber. It just seems to work netter for me with the softer bullets I shoot. Shoot them some and see how they do. Be sure and work up the load just to be safe.

[grizzly]

ALot of the chambers cut for the black powder rounds have no throat the lead comes right off the case mouth at 2*-10* that makes for a shorter overal length. Do a chamber cast of them and this is probably what you will find. I perfer this style chamber. It just seems to work netter for me with the softer bullets I shoot. Shoot them some and see how they do. Be sure and work up the load just to be safe.

Thanks. This certainly seems to be the case. Great thing about it is things are pretty visible inside the chamber with the right light. I'm just a bit gun shy as I haven't ever had to deal with a shallow chamber dimension such as this one. In a way it's a big bummer as I am now going to need to keep a cognizant effort to keep track of what cartridges work in what rifles.

At the moment, my load is 48 gr of IMR 3031. 50 Gr in the 1875 delivered 1720 fps. I really wanted this to be a little slowed, hopefully in the 1550 - 1600 range.

So, as for seating depth, how much freebore if any should I allow for?

[EDG]

You might consider setting your cases up with a very light friction fit for the bullet.
Cast your bullets .001 to .002 larger than the largest bore.

Then expand the sized cases to about the same diameter as the bullets. Seat your bullets a little too long for the longest chamber.
Use your thumb to push the case into the chamber and complete the bullet seating as you close the breech. This way the same round can be used in either chamber and the bullet will be seated against the rifling. Do not use this ammo in a repeater.
You might enjoy shooting a little more with 5744, 4227 (or SR4759 if you ever find any) at about 1100 to 1300 fps.

You don't really have a shallow chamber dimension with the 45-70. You have the SAAMI standard with almost no lead in angle. That design is very common on those old rounds. It is also used on the .30-30.
Take a look at this SAAMI 45-70 PDF. This is the standard used to manufacture the chambers and ammo in the US.

http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc...Government.pdf

Thanks. This certainly seems to be the case. Great thing about it is things are pretty visible inside the chamber with the right light. I'm just a bit gun shy as I haven't ever had to deal with a shallow chamber dimension such as this one. In a way it's a big bummer as I am now going to need to keep a cognizant effort to keep track of what cartridges work in what rifles.

At the moment, my load is 48 gr of IMR 3031. 50 Gr in the 1875 delivered 1720 fps. I really wanted this to be a little slowed, hopefully in the 1550 - 1600 range.

So, as for seating depth, how much freebore if any should I allow for?

[NSB]

Having owned, and enjoyed, several Winchester/Miroku 45-70's, I can tell you for a fact that they are made to the original SAAMI spec's for throat and chamber. That means there is virtually no throat at all. That doesn't allow for long bullets with a blunt ogive. No problem! Simply have someone run a reamer in there and open it up. I had Turnbull do two for me and they lengthened it approx. .250". Yes, about a quarter inch. That's where they set theirs on the guns they make. Before having it done I couldn't chamber some 350g Hornady bullets and no 405g Rem JSP bullets. It did not affect the accuracy of the gun in the least. In fact, my 1885 is the most accurate single shot I own. It will routinely shoot 1moa groups at 114yds (my deck to backstop). It will also do it with several different powders. Even if you pay someone to do it, it will only run you about a hundred bucks to get it done. It's money well spent. I went through all the aggravation of trying to load bullets that just wouldn't fit. Now everything fits. Good luck, get it done, and enjoy shooting that fine rifle.

[grizzly]

Having owned, and enjoyed, several Winchester/Miroku 45-70's, I can tell you for a fact that they are made to the original SAAMI spec's for throat and chamber. That means there is virtually no throat at all. That doesn't allow for long bullets with a blunt ogive. No problem! Simply have someone run a reamer in there and open it up. I had Turnbull do two for me and they lengthened it approx. .250". Yes, about a quarter inch. That's where they set theirs on the guns they make. Before having it done I couldn't chamber some 350g Hornady bullets and no 405g Rem JSP bullets. It did not affect the accuracy of the gun in the least. In fact, my 1885 is the most accurate single shot I own. It will routinely shoot 1moa groups at 114yds (my deck to backstop). It will also do it with several different powders. Even if you pay someone to do it, it will only run you about a hundred bucks to get it done. It's money well spent. I went through all the aggravation of trying to load bullets that just wouldn't fit. Now everything fits. Good luck, get it done, and enjoy shooting that fine rifle.

Yep. That's what I'm probably going to end up doing. I observed with what EDG stated last night while in the shop. It's just a kick in the crotch to drop this kind of coin on a rifle and then have to spend even more to suit my needs. But it is what it is.

I was able to set up and seat the bullets I'm casting a bit deeper and these seem to chamber effortlessly. The others would go, but the breech lock will shave a little brass from the head on closing. I'm trying to skirt reliability over accuracy.

Another question. Having not fired this yet, upon first inspection and sighting down the barrel I noticed I could not see the front sight with the flip up tang peep. The rear is a fixed buckhorn with elevator ramp. It doesn't fold down. I wondered if the peep was just low. In anticipation of shooting it today I went ahead and drifted the rear buckhorn out. If the rear tang gets sighted in successfully then I will re-measure to ensure clearance and re-install it. But is this typical?

[NSB]

Yep. That's what I'm probably going to end up doing. I observed with what EDG stated last night while in the shop. It's just a kick in the crotch to drop this kind of coin on a rifle and then have to spend even more to suit my needs. But it is what it is.

If it ends up doing this, you'll consider it money well spent. I'd buy the gun knowing I'd have to pay if I knew it was going to do this:Attachment 181042

[grizzly]

If it ends up doing this, you'll consider it money well spent. I'd buy the gun knowing I'd have to pay if I knew it was going to do this:Attachment 181042

That is indeed impressive!

[EDG]

There is not really a good reason to throat these rifles unless you are determined to use black powder with a long full diameter bullet at long range such as 1000 yards.
With smokeless you can just seat the bullet deeper because there is way more than enough case capacity to produce what ever pressure and velocity you want in a very strong single shot like a Highwall or a Ruger #1. The heavier loads of smokeless, even with the short throat are still capable of making enough recoil to discourage high volume shooting.
Keep your velocities between 1100 and 1300 fps and you will get excellent accuracy. With care you might go up to 1500 fps.
To get max velocity with black powder and a heavy bullet you might want to lengthen the throat.

My first 45-70 was a Siamese Mauser barreled with a 14" twist barrel in 1972. I lengthened the throat to permit seating the 400 grn Speer to the second cannelure.
It was very accurate with all jacketed bullets especially the 400 grn Speers but it was never very accurate with 300 gr cast bullets. I got rid of that rifle and began replacing it with several single shots. I have nearly a dozen now and they all have the original SAAMI factory no throat chambers. They all shoot well with good bullets seated to touch the rifling.

If you are obsessed with or just curious about the chamber issue talk to some of the custom bullet mould makers. Most can make moulds with driving bands that start out at .454 and get larger toward the back end of the bullet. These driving bands permit seating the bullet out just as if the barrel has been throated.
I have a mould made by Steve Brooks that has the first 2 bands at .454 then they are .456 and the base is .461. I shoot it as cast and the bullet has 2 grease grooves out of the case for a total of about .250. This bullet shoots better than I can hold in all the rifles I have tried it in. Since it weighs 520 grains I don't shoot it in the light rifles but it works great in both heavier Pedersoli and Browning BPCR rifles.

Anyway I would recommend that you test samples of known good bullets before you buy a mold and/or get your rifle throated. You should have no problem getting your rifle to shoot grease bullets. If you are set on paper patching you are out of my area of experience and I can make no recommendations.

That is indeed impressive!

[bigted]

That "hunter" rifle will shoot lights out if you do what is suggested above. Final seat into the rifling with the breech block. Do not size your cases for a full size ... Only enough for a slight friction fit in the case.

I have had three of these with one being the Browning and currently have the badger barreled BPCR Browning with the same chamber ... Love it. Would never do anything to the rifle.

Learn what the rifle wants and go on smiling and shooting ... They really like having the bullets engrave on the rifling.

[curator]

grizzly:

Check out "Texas-Mac" at:http://www.texas-mac.com/Articles.html
He has written several articles/books on the subject on the 1885 Winchester high wall rifle.

[irishd]

I too found that the throat in my 1885 to be a bit "shallow". While reloading some plated "Berry's" 350 grain projectiles, I found that due to the profile of the bullet, i was not able to get a 2.55 OAL as stated in my Lyman's reloading manual. Instead, I found that this combo would only chamber at an OAL of 2.43" leaving only the slightest marks from the lands (barely visable). Being concerned, I called some friends that have been reloading for this round for quite some time and was told that my loads should be more than safe as this load was not compressed and loaded at the lower end for the "Springfield Trapdoor" pressures , 40 grains of IMR3031 and pushing around 1300fps. Will be seeing tomorrow at the range.

[iplaywithnoshoes]

Had a similar "issue" with a .45-70 Encore 20" Katahdin Barrel. It was my first time reloading and I made my first .45-70 round. I seated a cast 405gr FP to the recommended 2.550 OAL and tried to close the action. Very early on I learned about chamber dimensions with that first round. I had to seat it also between 2.45-2.43. This was before I found out that it was okay to jam a little bit against the lands. I found the setup very accurate with the SAAMI-spec chamber.

shoe

[oldblinddog]

I owned one of those when they first came out. With the 350 Hornady seated to the cannelure they chambered easily and even better, they all went in one hole at 100 yards. I don't recall the powder or charge weight. I still have the scope bases for that rifle if anyone needs a set.

[45r]

My sporter 45-70 shoots very well using 5744 for low recoil loads.
It shoots the j-words well also.
I wouldn't change mine.
Every load shoots well.