Ethics

[runfiverun]

if y'all want that perfect ethical broadside standing still with 10 trees behind it shot, your probably best served not hunting public land out west.
even the does don't stand around looking at you unless they are in someone's backyard eating their lawn and you turn a light on them.
just the act of raising your rifle or your bow will get them moving.

[dk17hmr]

The thing about ethics is everyone has a different version they hold themselves to.

We eat pretty good at my house because of shots that some would consider unethical.

[OnHoPr]

Christophero, Smoke4320, and R5R have made the very good points of this thread.

The spectrum is so wide of hunter, beast, and weaponry along with personal idiosyncrasies in hunting tactics that ethics are very hard to determine across the board. Look at the different states. WI doesn't allow buckshot or 410s, where MI does. You go tellin dog runners in the south that they can't use buckshot and gov officials and politicians will loose their jobs. Some states have restrictions on caliber with mzzldrs. Some states have restrictions on shotgun use as well as centerfire rifle and pistola use. So, even the state lobbyist, DNRs, and politicians can't come to a agreement on what weaponry to shoot big game with. But, I know a lot of deer have been put in the freezer with 22s. What does that mean if you are just going to sit on your feed pile or food plot in your box blind and shoot a perfectly broadside standing deer at less than 50 yds in the head with a 22 that can shoot a squirrels head at that range seems ethical, does it not. I suppose so if that is your hunting style.

With r5rs comment about knowing your equipment needs a little leeway as to the experience in progress of knowing your equipment. But, that it should be deliberated on with concern in the development and progress of experience.

Besides all the hoopla of keyboard warriors.

I have lost a few deer in my life time. The first was my first ever deer I shot at age 19 with a scoped 357 mag BH with 15.5 gr of 2400 underneath a Sierra 150 HC at less than 30 ft standing broadside with a two hand hold between both knees cross hairs in the VVVVVV. The deer dropped and got up and took off like a bat out of he[[. No blood just a bit of hair and torn up leaves and turf for a hundred yds. It was my first so the grid search was quite extensive for 3/4 mile section in which she took off in with very sparse ground brush.

I shot a buck at 14 yds with a Darton 70# compound and a big ole hand sharpened Darton 3 blade where I watched the chartreuse feathers and fluorescent orange nock disappear right into the VVVVVV almost broadside with a touch angling away. I searched, even with a coworker, for two days for over a half mile with no recovery after I heard it hit the ground about 60 yds away where there was a decent size puddle of blood on the ground.

The last deer I shot was with a rifle that still bewilders me with an idiosyncrasy that shoots left every once in a while from the bench or the field even though it is fairly accurate most of the time. The loaded down 300 WM hit the buck back in the guts on a shy of 50 yd shot angling on a 45 degree angle. The deer took off in a fast walk like I missed. I grabbed another shell out of my pocket and reloaded and put the crosshairs on it, but the angle it was on if I had to shoot for the boiler room I would have had to go through the center of the ham and said nope, so the crosshairs went to the opposite lower leg femur artery and shot and the deer kept with its fast walk pace at about 65 yds. I said to myself what the heck I missed twice, I must of bumped my scope. Well I seen the deer stumble a bit about another 50 yds further. So, I had smoke and cup of tea then I took a walk to the shots and seen nothing of either hit. I went to where I seen the deer stumble and walked a few more yards and there it was dead laying on its belly vertical. Neither shot was a pass through, even the 6 or 8" of lower inside ham on the femur artery shot. The gut shot wasn't a pass through either. So, what was the 3000 ft lbs plus energy per shot the killer in this case just from shock or massive energy dump. There was no heart or liver damage to speak of, but the lungs or chest cavity looked unconventionally weird, real frothy inside. There was no blood from the femur artery shot either. No blood from shots to drop. So, what was it, just dead deer walking fast?

So, two perfect broadside VVVV boiler room shots that deer went over a 1/2 mile one with 357 and one with a hand sharpened big three blade, then a gut shot that barely made 75 yds. What are the bewildering ethics answers to those scenarios?

[shoot-n-lead]

The thing about ethics is everyone has a different version they hold themselves to.

We eat pretty good at my house because of shots that some would consider unethical.

Buzzard probably do, too.

[MT Gianni]

Elmer Keith wrote about the usefulness of a hip shot on an elk in timber. Not a paunch shot to penetrate the vitals but putting one in the hip/spine to put a bull down on the ground within 25-35 yards. You can then quickly approach and put one in the earhole. Few things put an animal on the ground incapacitated as fast, and you are there inside of the time they would bleed out from a lung shot. Frequently that would be the only time you would see such elk and then only a piece might be in the clear, It is the archers equivalent of a ham shot to the femoral artery that causes a rapid blood loss. I have made that shot twice and know it works but I only looked at it as a 5th or 6th option.

[dk17hmr]

Buzzard probably do, too.

Im sure they do, gut piles and what's left on the carcasses after I take my meat probably tastes pretty good to them.

[Sweetpea]

This thread is as useful as debating how far is an ethical shot.

The shot being questioned here, seems to me to be just fine, as he had the energy to push through.

But my buck this year was shot at a mere 333 laser measured yards, and I know that some here will be sure to call me unethical, or just a shooter.

Hunting is a bit different here in the west.

[runfiverun]

got me by 13 yards from last years buck there Brandon.

[Sweetpea]

Lamar, you know as well as I do, we don't go looking to shoot long range.

BUT

Out here, you'd better be ready to, or be willing to eat your tag.

Seeing as my last buck tag was in 2013, I wish we had limits like back east, but I'm glad we have public land to use!

[Texas by God]

Nothing in this world is 100% well except for your death, taxes and politicians/salesmen lie

AND opinions are like anuses- everybody's got one!

[dk17hmr]

This thread is as useful as debating how far is an ethical shot.
........
I know that some here will be sure to call me unethical, or just a shooter.

Hunting is a bit different here in the west.

I killed five big game animals this fall, three antelope, a deer, and a bull elk. All five of those animals could be construed as unethical, based on distance, shot angle, shot placement, caliber of the rifle, bullet weight, ect.

Out of those five only one "required" a follow up shot and it was a doe antelope I shot at 257 yards with a 62gr Barnes ttsx at 3575fps from my 22-250. The first shot was by all means a perfect broadside shot that blew up her heart, the second shot was through the shoulders to anchor her. She was standing in exactly the same spot for both shots she just didn't know she was suppose to fall over from the first hit.

Ethics conversation are pretty much useless online, they are different where you live and how you hunt. Being safe and responsible are about the only thing worth talking about.

[rodwha]

While I'd never want to shoot through the guts because of the mess I'm puzzled at how this makes it unethical when there's no chance the guts will keep the bullet from continuing on to the vitals.

[Hamish]

Buzzard probably do, too.

Oh, I see what you did there. By slyly making a reference to buzzards you're suggesting that he maims and loses more game than he kills without actually saying so.

How clever.

By starting all this bovine manure you've impugned and degraded both men's hunting experience and slimed Prodigals sharing his efforts and good fortune with this board.

There are ways to discuss these things but the OP ain't it.

[runfiverun]

I hate shooting anything over 100yds in the field but when there ain't nothing between you and the deer except some ankle high grass and a 100' draw you better be able to make the shot.
or go hunt elsewhere.
unfortunately elsewhere is not being able to see more than 40yds and you better be able to thread a bullet through some small openings.
I guess that's why I generally take 2 rifles.

[tdoyka]

This thread is as useful as debating how far is an ethical shot.

The shot being questioned here, seems to me to be just fine, as he had the energy to push through.

But my buck this year was shot at a mere 333 laser measured yards, and I know that some here will be sure to call me unethical, or just a shooter.

Hunting is a bit different here in the west.

before laser range finders came in, i shot a doe about 365+/- yards. there's a couple that have been 300+, several from 100-300 yards, more than several at 50-100 yards and a whole lot at under 50 yards. (several from me means 3-4 deer)

now a days, its around 150 yards for cast boolits and 300 yards for condom bullets. last year during rifle season, i had to pass on a decent 6pt because it was over 150 yards(187 yards to be exact). i was using my 444 marlin in tc encore with a 23" MGM barrel with 275gr ranch dogs, it was roughly 2000fps. could i have shot it? yes, but it was over 150 yards, which i stated. would i have shot it with my 6.5 creedmoor with 120gr nosler bt? yes i would.

i guess its just an ethical thing. i know i can go to the 200 yard mark with cast boolits(tried it, done it, next!) but i choose 150 yards. why? i don't know, its what i chose. for you, it could be 200 yards or 300 yards or 400 yards..... or 50 yards(i chose 50 yd because i use a ruger sbh in 44 mag).

its your choice what is ethical and what isn't. dk17hmr says he like to use his 22-250 for deer. more power to him. although PA lets you use any .22 centerfire on deer, i don't. i think it should be 6.5mm/.264" and up. i've shot them before using a 243, some dropped right there, some took off running(i've found those deer, very little blood). i know that there are guys/girls that think that 22/243 is the best thing since sliced bread. they're little 8 yo girl using a 223 put down a deer like lightening. good for them(seriously, good for them). i just feel that a 6.5/.264" on up is a much better way to go. both of my sons grew up on a 7-08, now the oldest uses a 7x57 while the youngest still uses a 7-08. i like to use a 6.5 cm, 30-40 krag, 444 marlin and a 44 mag. every once in a while i'll take my ruger #1 in 270 out with me.

also where do you start while using cast boolits on big game? 6.5 or 270 or 7mm or 308 or....
mine is the .308" boolits


its your choice to use whatever ethics is right for you.

[theleo]

Hmmm... ethics. It's simple for me, know you're equipment, know your capabilities, know your limitations and only take shots that you know you'll recover an animal 90%+ of the time. If someone takes shots I would pass on but consistently recovers game, who am I to question that persons ethics?

[Blackwater]

Shoot'n, you make a fine post, and pose a worthy question. Unfortunately, most will answer it in a willful way. However, as some have noted, hunting methods vary, usually by necessity, and different locales CAN and DO call for very different methods. Here in the south, it's VERY difficult to stalk, with all the rice crispy type leaves on the ground. I did, for 3 years, do a good bit of stalking in pursuit of one outsized deer that I hunted to the exclusion of all others. I never got that deer, but saw patches of his hide through small openings in the brush twice. Both were at less than 25 yds. as he slipped out the "back way." I wouldn't trade those experiences for anything. I let many, many deer walk, including some very nice racks, but there are 3 types of deer hunting - Meat, bucks and trophy bucks - and none of the 3 types of hunting is the same. Now, being not as able as I once was, and having missed my opportunity for "fame and fortune" in not getting that one outsized deer, I'm just a meat hunter. And baiting with corn or what have you is now legal here too, and we have a 12 deer limit! So that's quite a different type of "hunting" than I grew up being used to. And it's really a lot less fun, but few seem to see it that way. They seem to feel "entitled" to get a deer.

And the biggest problem in ethics today, IMO, is the simple fact that so many, many don't see any reason or necessity to really learn HOW to hunt or even shoot! Some miss a deer with their .243, and go out and buy a .300 mag. that scares the bejabbers out of them, and now, they can't hit a #2 washtub at 25 yds., yet think they're justified in shooting at a deer at 400 because "it shoots flat to half a mile!!!!" And you CANNOT tell these yahoos a thing. I have learned to keep silent in the gun shops. Don't want to cost them customers. But it's really, really hard to hear some of the stuff that folks think they're "bragging" about in there! It's hard to hold my piece sometimes, but I'm getting a little better at it.

Some folks seem to enjoy showing off their ignorance! But I guess those kinds have always been with us. It's just so sad to see anyone in this once great "nation of riflemen" become so ignorant and proud of it! At least I get some GOOD info there, too! Ethics in all walks of life is getting rarer and rarer as we get more and more willful and haughty. That's not gonna' lead us to anywhere good, eventually. We just missed a real lulu of a consequence for our failings. God forbid we should jump right back into that snake pit!

[buckwheatpaul]

Ethics: rules of behavior based on ideas about what is morally good and bad

Have we lost sight of ethics as it pertains to humane (high percentage quick kill) shots that we take on game animals?

Seems like this may be taking the same road as ethics in all other aspects of our lives.

I, for one, have passed on MANY shots because there was not the opportunity to put the shot in the VITALS of a deer. I have never considered the gut, to be the vital area of a deer. Also, I have never regretted letting an animal walk, due to this practice.

shoot-in-lead....I could not agree with you more....I have always waited for the right shot and has never rushed the shot....thanks for the post....Paul

[Prodigal Son]

I guess Elmer Keith was unethical too, breaking the hip and then walking up and shooting again to dispatch his game! Sounds like a bunch of arm chair quarterbacks playing football! I for one don't mind who thinks what, hunting is not a political correct endeavor, I refuse to be PC it has crippled this country and the thread too!

[leeggen]

When it comes to ethics you have to factor in several things. The gun- the hunters capability- the bullit/boolit-the weather- the cost of the hunt, if I put out 6000 dollars for a hunt I will need to make those LOOOOng shots probably. Each of us have different capabilities. Some hunters can shoot a deer at 600 yds others can't hit one at 100 yds. I have seen deer hit threw the lungs that ran far enough it would have killed a good coon dog. But I have seen deer shot threw the lungs drop right there. You take a deer that has been spooked by one hunter that runs infront of another hunter, well adrenolin does wild things. Saw a deer hit with an arrow that stood straight up on its hind legs run 50 yds and drop, front legs never touched the ground till it dropped. I have dropped deer with a litttle 5mm remington rifle doing head shots, never lost onne of them. But also hit a deer with the 270 130grsp. and it just kept walking about 100 yds ahead of us until it hid in a water pond. It was on the edge of a thicket. It is up to each hunter what they themselves call ethical for them.
CD