Two guns to rule them all!

[44man]

Amen to that age thing, 44! Add in diabetes, failing eyesight, and other factors, and it's a wonder I can hit a barn from the inside! But I'd still hat to be me with me shooting at me! Not nearly as satisfying as it used to be, but at least I think I can still defend myself capably, if ever more slowly over time. And now, all those fundamentals mean even more to me than they once did. Life has many stages, and I'm just glad to still be here to post! And shoot!

I am glad to have you all but W.R. is still a whippersnapper!

[robg]

In our comps when we still had pistols etc ,the speed shooting comps I always shot my 686 double action no need to change grip to cock the hammer just concentrate on sigh picture and squeeze. After awhile I shot better da than sa .that revolver had a 4 lb as trigger and a 9 lb da trigger but it was butter smooth.

[Blackwater]

The S&W's lend themselves well to trigger cocking - that is, pulling almost all the way through, but hesitating near full cock, and checking the sights, making any minor adjustments, and then finishing pulling through and letting the shot go. It all can be done very quickly. But real "combat shooting," IMO, involves a straight pull through with NO hesitation at all, unless maybe at 50 or more yards. Then, trigger cocking it can provide some real improvement in results as to hits. I'm conditioned to S&W triggers, and am having a tough time getting really used to my Sec. Six, but what's life without a challenge. I love the toughness of the SS. Great pistols. The triggers just can't be made nearly as smooth and even as a S&W's. It ought to do what I want/need to do these days, though. I've just never been able to warm up to the GP-100's. Too heavy, IMO, and not as svelte in handling as a S&W 19/66 or even the SS. Wouldn't it be nice to have all the traits we want in one gun? Alas, that will likely never happen. Just makes us keep trying harder, I guess?

[44man]

Although I love the SA more then any other one, I love all revolvers and the 1911 was always a favorite but I never acquired one. As a kid I carved one from wood as perfect as could be done. I stained the grips with ox blood shoe polish. I often wonder what happened to it. I suppose it went the way of the tons of comics I had and the lionel train set. I could be rich!
But nothing grabbed me more then a Colt SAA, don't know if it was movies or what but the looks and feel can't be denied.
The best S&W I had was the 8-3/8" ribbed barrel model 27. I could hit the little frozen juice cans at 100 yards from prone. I put a Phantom scope on it and shot the 358156HP. You are not old unless you remember the Phantom. Another gun I should have kept.
My first .44 was the flat top in 1956, then over the years 5 or 6 model 29's.
I sold them off because of the grips. With my hands I shot better off hand then I could from Creedmore, POI change in how I picked the gun up. Still wonderful guns and custom grips might have helped. Never had much money. To buy guns meant selling guns. I even had the long 29 with the adjustable front sight that never worked. Good idea that failed. Had some TC sights that never worked either.
To start work as a mechanic at $1.75 and get another job at $2.25 was amazing but prices went up faster. $8,000 for a VW beetle and $15,000 for my first house. All we did was pay. You never get anyone to fix things so you learn to do it, Everything and anything and even TV's went bad fast so I learned them and fixed them, had TV's in my garage from all over Ohio. Gunsmith work was needed too and I learned them. No machines and just hand work.
Even later I wanted boolit molds but am still frugal. Made my mold vice from cast iron risers and had scrap aircraft aluminum. Make my own cherries.
Youngsters today want all given to them. Get off the bed and set up and cast concrete basement walls or lay a ton of block. Pour footers. Roof a house. Make furniture.
Complain and protest, come back in 80 years and tell what your life was worth.
I am sorry but shooters look for EASY too. You need to work.

[ole 5 hole group]

I don't know about that Weaver style, I gave it a good go but never liked it. I mainly squared away and developed my own style, which is now called the Isosceles Stance - There were a lot of us shooting that way while most others were shooting Weaver style. Today, the Isosceles is used by most in most pistol competitions, when shooting off-hand.

67 years young - just remember, it's only a number and just keep at it until you run out of numbers.

[W.R.Buchanan]

5 hole: please to understand that Weaver stance is for shooting at "conversational distances," with a Semi Auto Pistol. If I tried to shoot my SBH Bisley like that with full house loads I'd probably have a big groove in my forehead.

As the targets move away I use a looser Weaver stance which is essentially an Isosceles Stance with the left elbow dropped. The biggest problem with the Isosceles Stance is that encourages "Turtling" which is scrunching your head down between your shoulders to the gun instead of bringing the gun up to your eye level. The most exaggerated version of this I've seen is Randi Rogers (Evil Roy's Grand Daughter) and she has her head down to where her eye level is literally between her shoulders.

It is hard to argue that her style is counter productive simply because she is one of the most successful Female Shooters of all time, but she will probably have neck problems when she gets older.

I dry fire my Glocks a lot, and with my current style as shown I can hold the sights nearly perfectly still thru the Trigger Press 90% of the time and the other 10% isn't that far off. Part of this is attributable to the stabilizing effect that having your support arm firmly planted on your gut has on the hold.

I have Dawson sights on two of the Glocks and there is about half the Front Sight width of light on either side of the Front Sight when lined up. Any minor deviations in shot POI are as a result in minor variations in sight alignment as the shot breaks. However major deviations are more about mashing the trigger and it will take along time and a lot of both dry and wet firing to knock that down to almost nothing. I know I'm closer now than I have ever been and surprisingly what I am doing now is exactly what they were trying to teach me all along at Front Sight. This was my 7th pistol class!

I am a slow learner when it comes to muscle memory type things,,, but once I get it,,, I got it.

Anyway here's a pic of my grip on the SBH. Going to shoot it at the Short Range Silhouette shoot this Saturday with some of my New PC'd Keith Boolits. That gun has excellent Bowen and Weigand Sights on it and should be pretty accurate.

Randy

[ole 5 hole group]

Ya, I started out by rounding my shoulders and dropping my head also, but then came along the "speed" boys and they brought the sights up to eye level and of course, the rest of us just tagged along, as everything "they" did was an improvement and ole Jerry has it down to a science.

I jumped on the bandwagon relative to milling a 1911 slide for the micro red dot. That's the best improvement for the 1911 since hot home made bread with butter & honey - in my opinion anyway.

[W.R.Buchanan]

44man: We are seeing the zenith of pussification right now with the college kids protesting Trumps Election. They have been so programmed and mis-informed that they really don't even know what they are protesting. 90% are just there for the ride but think hey are accomplishing something. My statement about this, I got from Hildegard,,,,

"At this point, what difference does it make!"

These people when they fully mature, if you could ever actually call it that, will be virtually useless. It is like they were bred to be the next generation of welfare recipients, and educated to be morons. Idiocracy?.

I was listening to one speaking on Tucker Carlson's new show a few days ago and he was spewing all these big esoteric words in sentences that made no sense. This is a primary trait of people who are pushing an agenda that they don't really understand and I have seen it thruout my entire life.

My rule is that if you can't explain it to me in plain English, you don't understand it yourself. And that extends to those who "Invented it," but don't understand what they did or are doing.

My life Philosophy has been , "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It how well you do what you don't know how to do!"

In order to pull this off you must know something about a lot of subjects, and in doing so it becomes much easier to know when somebody else is FOS!

Randy

[44man]

I love the way you say that. The two woman down the road are Mensa class but can't handle a dollar. Live check to check and feed a pile of cats. They always call me for help and can't even buy new spindles for the mower. Been broken all year and it was only $38 for two spindles.
One worked for FEMA so she has to have a retirement plus SS. My feeble 12th grade education can't compute this.
But the saving grace is they let me hunt and are republicans.
Smart does not mean common sense. Can you imagine a kid going to school to learn liberal arts, Just what the hell is that junk? Better is to tell the punk to take the 80# bag of cement over there. Only 200 more when you come back or go home. You have only 200 bundles of shingles to get on the roof. OH, hurt your pinky, no pay today! Amazing how stupid we were and made the country but now "That string goes over that one or you will lose a shoe".

[dtknowles]

...........My rule is that if you can't explain it to me in plain English, you don't understand it yourself. And that extends to those who "Invented it," but don't understand what they did or are doing.

My life Philosophy has been , "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It how well you do what you don't know how to do!"

In order to pull this off you must know something about a lot of subjects, and in doing so it becomes much easier to know when somebody else is FOS!

Randy

If you are willing to accept an explanation of Particle Physics or Thermodynamics that does not include some things you don't consider "Plain English" you will remain ignorant even after you think you understand. For some subjects "Plain English" is not adequate for the task, actually words often are not sufficient and numbers and graphs are probably required. Try and explain the Carnot cycle in Plain English.


This "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It how well you do what you don't know how to do!" is idiocy. Being excellent at what you know is very important and not doing things you don't know is just as important. If you don't know plumbing don't do it and hire someone who does.

Tim

[garym1a2]

I would pick the .22 semi first, could be a Ruger Mark2 type, a Sr22, a P22 or many others. The 22 lr is great to start with. No need to get a hand cannon and get them scared of it. The second gun could be a 357 shooting 38s.

[Drm50]

I agree with a lot of OPs statements. If you can handle a SBH, you should do well with a D/A or
1911. The long hammer fall of SAs, makes a S&W feel like a target gun. I hunt and target shoot
I never fire my S&Ws on DA anyway, not even K22s. I never went in for "trigger cocking", after
a while thumb cocking becomes automatic and just as fast. I have never been involved in DA
type competitions, so my experience there is limited. I can tell you one thing going back to SA
is a lot harder that going to a S&W and firing it SA. It's not like riding a bicycle, it's like shooting
pool. You can get rusty.

[Green Frog]

OK, I've thought about it some more and would settle for two guns IF and only if I could get these two specific guns,equipped as follows;
1) A 70 Series Colt Gold Cup with a 22 conversion kit from Kart, Day, Marvel or Pachmayr. At least 2-3 magazines for each at a minimum.
2) A Model 66-1 or 686-1 S&W.
So I've "cheated" my way to three guns and the ability to do my "minimum requirements" for shooting. Of course ASAP there would soon be some sort of S&W or High Standard kit gun in 22 LR, and probably a Model 36 or 60 for CCW and... but here we go again!

Froggie

[Lloyd Smale]

add a bolt action 06,22lr rifle, a 12guage and your ready for anything. Not that id want to restrict myself to those five guns but if push came to shove you could hunt anything in the US with that in your safe. To be honest though if shtf id personaly rather have a glocks or m&p's. To me there a bit better if your just looking for a tool. But the super Blackhawk would have to be there too.

I know a lot of folks here are seeking to improve their shooting, and I salute every one of you. I figured it might help to note that there are 2 guns, that, if you learn to shoot them well, you'll be able to shoot ANY handgun well. Those 2 guns are the Super Blackhawk .44 mag. and the .45 ACP 1911 type pistols.

With the .44, you'll have to learn a good, consistent and FIRM (not tight, but firm) grip. With the .45, and its double shuffle recoil due to the slide's back and forth action, and its effect on recoil sensation, you'll learn "follow through," or the ability to keep the gun steady throughout the recoil cycle.

Learn to shoot these 2 guns, and you'll pretty well be able to pick up most ANY handgun, and shoot it well. This ain't no small thing, either! When one can pick up a gun and deliver accuracy with it, if it's got accuracy in it to get out of it, it breeds a confidence and satisfaction that continually practicing with milder, easier to shoot guns will NEVER be able to create within you.

With the .44, you'll need to learn a good, FIRM grip, which means firm enough to keep it under control in firing and through the recoil process, where that rounded back on the grip will allow the gun to "slip" in your hands as the barrel rises in recoil. That pressure you grip it with HAS to be very consistent, or it'll affect your POI, and you'll get vertical stringing.

The .45 teaches you to keep the gun stable in your hand as it goes through its unique recoil cycle, and the slide first pushes it back and then forth as it closes. Learn to shoot one of those, and your follow through will be greatly improved with all other handguns you may ever shoot.

Just throught I'd drop this little pearl in here for those who are struggling for accuracy. Don't be afraid of the .44. It won't hurt you, as long as you don't "limp wrist it," which CAN make autos malfunction because the gun doesn't have a firm "wall" to push against while the slide comes back against mainspring pressure. Limp wristing also is an anathema to shooting stronger recoiling SA's, too, because it doesn't keep the gun under much control, and it will inevitably be inconsistent as well, usually rising in grip tension as follow up shots are made, and thus, giving lots of vertical dispersion. Remember, recoil begins when the bullet first starts to move in the cylinder, continues as it passes the barrel/cylinder gap, and proceeds down the barrel. A firm grip makes it shoot lower. A light grip higher, simply because a light grip lets it recoil higher before the bullet leaves the barrel.

If you want to shoot better, and have friends with either or both of these guns, try them. You may be surprised at how a simple challenge like they provide CAN make you a MUCH better shot, and it usually doesn't take nearly as long as merely continuing to shoot the "wrong way." There's really no "wrong" way, but there ARE ways that tend to work best, and most consistently. And in almost all cases (not quite, but almost all), a firm grip will yield your very best results, and some people are shocked when they see what a difference it can make.

FWIW?

[Lead Fred]

I am not a handgun person, never have been, never will be. I do my magic with rifles.
I was raised on 1911s, first one was my ole man's, had them in the Army until they decided to go girlie caliber.
I do have two handguns.

45ACp Sig P220. SA/DA no safety, decocker. Finest 45 Ive ever shot. Store bought, reloaded, cast, it dont matter, it shoots them all. Did not care to have any other.

Then my buddy sold me a rusted shut 1969 Ruger Blackhawk in 357 mag. Its the fast to unload, and the slowest to reload. Cleaned it up, Duacoated it. I would have preferred 45 Colt.
It sits by the bed, loaded with 1 CCI snake shot, and 5 XTP 158s.
Fun plinker, and if Im ever in a show down in Dodge City, Im ready.
The standard load is a 160gr Keith hollow point from an original Ideal mold.
Its not made for anything serious, its good practice, and simple to load for.

So as far as Im concerned, there is only ONE, A P220

[MT Gianni]

I see the frustration in trying to master a Blackhawk/Super Bkwk and the factory grips. I have no idea of the size of the late Bill Rugers hands but the best thing I have ever done is toss all of his factory grips and get some that fit. I have 4 Ruger SA at the present time but If I needed three guns it would be a DA 44 Magnum, 1911 and a 32 H&R. I can cast for the 32 long/H&R for a lot less than I can shoot 22's. If a redhawk 45 weighed less, or if DW still made a 45 I would go there. If I were stuck with the CZ75 in either 9 or 40 I wouldn't fuss too much either.

[hp246]

I'll throw my .02 in here. If I cold only choose two handguns for all purposes and to learn how to shoot, I'd go first with a 1911 type. You can pick any high quality manufacturer. This gun would be in .45 ACP. My second choice would be a DA revolver, probably a K or L frame S & W. This gun would be a 38/.357 mag.

Breathing, sight alignment are skills easily transferred fromone system to the next. Of course as already mentioned numerous times above are the differences between a DA and SA trigger. But I have another reason. Grip/grip angle. The 1911 has what I consder to be a relatively straight grip that requries the wrist to be locked. The grip on the K frame (and most other revolvers) is basically a quarter of a circle. If you don't grip the revolver properly, you are most likel to miss what you are shooting at. If you learn to handle these two systems, you can handle about 90% of the hadgun systems out there.

[robertbank]

With the young folks into polymer guns, the Glock dominates, outside of hunting and competition shooting, the baby boomers maybe the last generation that embraces the 1911 to the extent most here do. It is heavy and expensive to make. Of course the demise of the 1911 has been predicted for the past 115 years and maybe predicted again 100 yeas from now but I rather doubt it.

The 1911 would not be my choice as a gun to learn how to shoot a handgun on and not n 45acp.

Any of the striker fired pistols in 9MM in my view would be a better choice and if limited to only one gun...a DA/SA pistol like a CZ, Beretta 92 or SIG 226. The Revolver would do equally well in 38spl if limited to one gun. Just a thought and an opinion worth what you paid for it.

Take Care

Bob

[2ndAmendmentNut]

While I don't shoot this little best "well" I do practice with it more than anything else. I also find just about any other gun "easy" to shoot after practicing with my 340.


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[Multigunner]

Everyone should have at least one .22 LR handgun. A high quality .22 revolver will last several generations.
For a handloader the .38/357 revolvers are the most flexible and easiest to reload for. The power range can be tailored to your needs, target, small game, self defense, hunting up to deer sized (anything bigger deserves a clean death from a high velocity rifle) game, without worry of ammo sensitivity malfunctions so long as sane loads are used.
If I lived in Grizzly country I might go with a .44 Mag or larger, but we only have medium size Black Bear here.

I like autoloaders but if limiting myself to only two handguns I'd go with revolvers for the durability and ease of maintenance and replacement of worn parts if necessary. Most internal parts of revolvers subject to wear can be fabricated with only the most basic hand tools.