i agree on how the powder gets down the drop tube, i "jiggle trickle" by holding the brass pan in one hand and tapping it with a finger of t'other hand. this gives more uniformity to the drop in terms of how much powder leaves the pan at any one jiggle, and the space of time it takes for the next jiggle.
there are so many factors involved in cartridge loading that all need to be done well, not just one or a few. no small task for the impatient or ADD types!
Test 3 is going to be repeated. Because I changed the procedure I don't trust the results. I used the powder measure to drop charges but into the scale pan not a case. I checked the weights, just to be sure, then I trickled them down my home-made drop tube. They definitely settled more than previously which means they were compressed less with the compression die. There's a good chance it will rain on Tuesday so I may not be able to test. At least its still warm enough not to snow.
With a given charge of powder ( volumne) the drop tube does lower its level when trickled into case and the compression die finishes the compression to whats needed. The amount of compression is the same in the end just being done in 2 steps. I find the drop tube compresses the bottom half of the charge more than the top half. The compression die finishes this compression and it ends up pretty consistant through out the charge.
Country Gent, so "compression" to you is the amount of settling you get from trickling the charge into the case plus the amount of compacting from the compression die?
I've an idea how that would be done, it's a lot of steps.
To me the height of the powder column after trickling is the starting point and "compression" is the amount of compacting from there by the compression die.
for me, the drop tube compacts, and the plug compresses. two different processes and each with different results. i do both.
Settling, stacking, or compressing with the drop tube happens wasnt sure what to call it above. But a charge dropped thru a drop tube sets lower in that case than one dropped threw just a funnel. A slow trickle thru the drop tubes increases this even more. With the slow trickle thru my 3' tube if I pour it back out of case I ussually have to dig out the last little bit. When compressed with the compression die it all has to be dug out. Ounce I find the charge I make note of the distance from case mouth to the wad stack and maintain that. I only measure the actual compression with the dropped tubed charge. This assunes the drop tubed charge is a constant.
Try not to overthink the compression/drop tube thing. If drop tubing the charge gets enough of a charge to satisfy bullet seating depth with the accuracy and velocity needed then all is well. If drop tubing doesn't get you there then you need to further compress the powder with some sort of tool. It's not a complicated thing.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
I pretty much have quit using a drop tube. I use a short plastic funnel that has about a 4 or 5" tube on it and I slowly pour the powder from the pan filling the case. Then I tap the powder pan on the edge of the funnel and compress the depth I need. Tat short drop with the tapping on the funnel rim settles the powder in the case just as far as when I use the 36" or the 24" tube.
But think for a minute, why worry about the tube? your compressing the same amount either way anyway.
The only time I use the long drop tube is when I use the powder drop and the loading block is on the floor. I lift and drop the handle and move the tube to the next case and do it again. I see no difference in accuracy at 200 yards with 3/10's grains more or less what the powder drop drops.
Now match shooting out to the 600 mtr or the 1K is a different story. I weigh the powder but still use the same short funnel.
It's a security blankey thing I think
Ate lunch and went to the range. I had to wait but the rain stopped long enough for me to set up the chrony and get my test rounds down range. It was a repeat of Test 3 except I used the Lyman powder measure to dump a load into the scale pan and then trickled it down my home made drop tube. First thing I noticed was the powder compacted a lot more. Compression was more in line with what I was expecting too.
Down range I got a 4-shot group the size of a half dollar with one flyer that was close but out. Now I'll increase the charge by another 3 grains and test again. If it opens up I'll drop back and test 1 grain up and down. If it gets tighter I'll go up another 3 grains.
Think I'll work on testing twice a week instead of once. I don't see any problem with that. Maybe even three times a week, but that might be pushing it.
First, I thought the designations FFg, FFFg etc. were standards, indications of granulation. So I was a little surprised when I looked at some Olde Eynsford 2F and thought it was closer to 3F. So I did some volume and weight checks of Olde Eynsford 2F, regular Goex 3F and regular Goex 2F. Well, OE is larger than 3F but smaller than 2F. Not by a little bit either; by several percentage points.
Well, OE 2F at 53.6 grains volume had given me "interesting" results that I wanted to explore. But being curious I filled the powder measure with Goex 3F instead and loaded up 10 cases. BTW, that was 50 grains by weight.
Set up at 100 yards and did a sighter shot. Made a minor adjustment and knuckled down to business. Between shots I wiped with a patch damp with Moose Milk. The first three were in the 7 ring at 9, 4 and 12 o'clock. I didn't think this was going to be very informative. Then the next shot was in the 10 ring at 3 o'clock. Well, blind squirrel ............
Next I wiped between shots with the damp Moose Milk patch and then a dry patch between shots. 8 o'clock 10 ring; 9 o'clock 10 ring. Hmmmm. Then three shots touching at 11 o'clock 10 ring.
Ok. So does it take 5 shots to get dirty enough to shoot straight or is it the change in wiping procedure?
sigh....... wonder if 5744 would work...............
It may take 3-5 shots to get to consistant barrel conditions after cleaning or changing loads. Not so much dirty enough but to the consistant fouled condition the rifle wants to shoot well. Buffalo Arms I think has a chart on their web site that gives the grain size or range for diffrent granulations also.
With paper patched bullets you can notice a big difference with changes to your fouling routine. I would try 2 damp patches followed by a dry one and you might notice another increase in accuracy. I never bother with less than two damp and one dry. Sometimes I use more.
Chris.
Originally Posted by country gent
CG I have to disagree with this in part.
A friend and I were talking about the benefit using a droptube or not. I said that I pretty much quit using a tube except when I just want to drop a charge from the powder drop into the case with out weighing the powder. Then I use the tube with the loading block on the floor and using the 32" tube filling the cases. I just use the funnel that has a short tube and tap the side of the funnel with the powder pan. This settles the powder very well.
I'm not one to assume how things work with out first checking just what is going on. Checking compressed powder is not easy to see unless you can do it looking through the case.
I am just beginning to read and learn about this stuff, but wonder if anyone has tried incrementally compressing their load in stages? Maybe pour half, compress it, and pour the other half and compress again? Maybe that's just another way to needlessly complicate the process.
Just get a glass or plastic tube and drop powder into it. then you might be able to see better what the powder actually does.
Took a "time out" and decided to play with a 243 Win that had proven difficult to find a load. Found a combination that shot a 5-shot 3/8" group at 100 yards. Didn't believe it so I retested and shot another 3/8" group at 100 yards.
Now back to the 38-55.... when I started I'd found a YouTube video by Pedersoli that gave two loads and pictures of their performance. One load used a custom bullet, the other used a bullet available from Buffalo Arms. When I looked it up on BA the description said it was designed specifically for the Pedersoli 1885 High Wall 38-55 so I ordered it.
Using Goex FFg, FFFg, Olde Eynsford 2F, Swiss 1 1/2 and a number of smokeless powders I have not been able to get the expected performance. With the black powders I haven't used BR primers (don't have any) but I did everything else.
I went back to the video and took a screen shot of the target, bullet, cartridge and data. I figured I could calculate the seating depth and, therefore, the compression and get all sorts of useful information. Careful measurements and a bit of math got me real close to the 2.125" case from Starline; the bullet is close to the 1.46" BACO 380 360 M4, and ........ wait a minute .... My BACO 380 360 M4 has 5 grease grooves; theirs has 4.
Have you read the Summer 2011 article in the Black Powder Cartridge News? It has an article about the .38-55 1:12 twist Pedersoli.
The load with the Buffalo Arms bullet was:
WW brass, CCI BR2 primer, 53.0gr Swiss 1.5, Buffalo Arms 360gr money bullet, SPG, 0.030" poly wad, 1280 fps. The article doesn't mention the OAL, but implies that it's as long as possible. I have no idea why the load used the short brass when the chamber is designed for the long brass. That won't help...
From the picture, the bullet they are using is the 380360M3, and yours is the 380360M4. Seem like very similar bullets to me though.
Chris.
Chris, there is a Pedersoli video that covers the same information and was the basis for some testing. After my "break" I went back to it and duplicated their load as close as possible with what I had on hand. I used CCI Large Rifle primers instead of BR2, fiber wads and the 380360M4 bullet. The M4 has one more lube groove than the M3. I calibrated my powder measure with Swiss 1 1/2 until the charge dropped weighed 53 grains. For seating depth, compression and OAL I used the picture showing the cartridge and how many lube rings were exposed. They may have said they were using the short brass but based on the picture my cartridge with the long brass was an exact match. That cartridge was a little long and had to be mechanically cammed into the chamber. I shortened it just a tad with a little more compression and it firmly engraved on the rifling using just thumb pressure. I figured on 2 fouling shots and 5 for group. I wiped the bore with a Moose Milk patch, then a dry patch before starting and between each shot.
The first shot was 6 inches high at 11 o'clock. Shots 2 through 7 were 2 inches low at 7 o'clock and bunched up into a 4-inch group that was almost square. Yahoo!!! Velocity was 1,296 fps.
Next I switched only the powder to Goex Olde Eynsford 2F. I hadn't touched the settings on the powder measure so I dropped charges until several came out weighing the same then I loaded the same 7 cases used before. The OE charge weighed 54.4 grains. Visually you can see that OE 2F is finer than Swiss 1 1/2. (interesting). I followed the same procedure as before, wiping the bore with Moose Milk and then a dry patch before starting and then after each shot.
The first shot was 6 inches high at 12 o'clock. The 6 remaining grouped a little over 6 inches and slightly elongated vertically. Velocity was 1344 fps. The spread and standard deviation was better with OE than Swiss. It was a windy day and I won't swear my target backer wasn't flapping back and forth which would give me a vertically aligned string. BUT important to me was the velocity.
Now I want to reduce the OE charge and move the velocity to 1280 fps.
Good stuff! I shoot OE 1.5 in addition to Swiss 1.5. My .45 cal PP loads are a little faster with OE than with Swiss, although I still use Swiss 1.5 in that rifle. I haven't used OE in a .38, but use it in my .40-65. It is good stuff. I think it's the only powder that's in the ballpark with Swiss.
Chris.
OE and Swiss are the same screen sizes, so yes your OE 2f is finer than the Swiss 1.5
Rp 91/2 primers seem to be the go to primer with OE.
Your vertical could be coming from not running enough patches between shots.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
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