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Thread: PP Success with 40/65

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
    DHDeal's Avatar
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    PP Success with 40/65

    I shot 30 rounds at 300 yards today and other than the fouling being harder than when I shoot GG bullets, I'll say they are every bit as accurate as I had hoped. As I shoot from a very solid platform and use a Randolph front rest and Edgewood bag, the rifle can't be held tighter/better.

    I find that I need a few less points to reach 300 than using GG too. My confetti wasn't cut in perfect strips, but they were cut. I fired 1 round for verification, made a sight change and fired 9 remaining rounds from that recipe on a 12" square piece of steel. Very slightly over MOA. The 9 shots on steel were a 3.5" group. Nice stuff there. You know when one of the bullets hit as it jumps like crazy and makes a very nice ring.

    I've been considering scoping this rifle, but I don't know if an MVA will make it any better.

    The rifle liked both the Brooks elliptical and the Accurate flat nose equally, surprisingly. We'll see if a 16 twist will stabilize a 1.4" bullet to 600 as soon as I get a chance.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_20161027_160912.jpg  

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Good shooting. PP is the way to go.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    I had more trouble pushing the patch through the bore than when I shoot GG bullets. The patches were just damp with moose milk. I probably have to have them closer to wet.

    Call it 2 wet and 2 dry. Same patch flipped. When this barrel gets clean, it sings, for a lack of a better word. On the second pass through with the dry patch, she sang and sent he bullets in he same place.

    Glad I went on to the 300 yard line instead of starting closer. I have no idea of velocity or the other numbers.
    Last edited by DHDeal; 10-30-2016 at 10:51 PM.

  4. #4
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    wow, awesome results, congrats!!!

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Sounds great! I wish my .40-65 was shooting now. This spring, for sure.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    I don't know if I was just imagining it, but recoil did not seem to be any different than when I shoot GG bullets. These octagonal barrelled rifles act a certain way off of the rest for me, and even though I had 7 grains more powder, it was still a gentle rifle to shoot. That really helps in accurate shooting for me not having to worry about recoil. I'm not a sissy about recoil, but I do prefer high performance smaller calibers for smokeless rifles as they are easier to shoot accurately.

    I know physics have to be involved, but these PP bullets are travelling faster than the GG bullets (7 grains more powder same weight bullets) but very similar recoil. Interesting.

    I am curious about the hard fouling though. Whenever I've shot Swiss 1.5F (any Swiss really) fouling has always been easy to push out. I always use damp Arsenal patches with a correctly sized delrin wiping rod. The end of the rod kept pushing through the rod. Never happened before over thousands of rounds of GG bullets. I know the lube helps keep everything softer, but this stuff was hard. I'll try wetter patches next time. Still, the fouling came out with 2 wet and 2 dry. Conditions here are extremely dry and that may be a part of it.

  7. #7
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    going from 65 grains of swiss 1-1/2f to 80 grains made a noticeable recoil difference in my .45-70 roller. more of a thump than push, but not at all hard to handle, just more recoil.

    without grease grooves, the papered slick is followed by a glut of bp residue. i originally used a 1:10 ballistol:water wet patch, followed by a dry patch, and then a chamber swab dry patch. i recently used LVL patch lube instead of the ballistol mix and i think it does a better job of removing most of the fouling while softening what's left

  8. #8
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    Glad it's working for you, DHD. Obviously, you will be depositing more hard fouling in the bore with more powder and no lube. I went through the X number of moist/wet and Y number of dry patches thing and found it good for only a finite number of shots, and then flyers began to occur. You may notice at Silhouette shoots that whatever the shooters are doing with their bores while shooting, when the relay is over, the rifles are mostly back of the line getting a good cleaning out. They know how fouling accumulates.

    I would recommend that while you are still "in development," that you clean the bore until it is clean and dry it until it is dry before firing the next shot. Don't be shy about using wet patches, soaking wet patches, extra patches, bore pigs or whatever. If you don't like the looks of the last dry patch, or feel any resistance pushing it through, do another wet one "just for luck" and then another dry one.

    Once you see how your rifle really performs with perfect bore condition, then you can work out a programmed routine (two wets and a dry, etc.,) and see how many shots you can get out of it before "outers" start showing up.

    MVA makes great scopes, but I'd give a lot to have eyes that could use iron sights again. There's more "machinery" involved with the scope settings, which in my case means more things to go wrong at critical moments. If you can shoot iron sights well, I'd say stick with them as long as you can.

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    at least for me, wiping between shots adds a huge amount of time to the shot process, and when you have 45 minutes to touch off 30 rounds for score and 5 sighters, time is precious and having more of a bore cleaning task adds to the shooting anxiety. it takes me 1 good wet patch, and at least 1 dry patch, plus a chamber dry patch - but sometimes i need to use more wet patches. i'm gonna try the BACO bore pigs. if the ppb cleaning 'tween shots can't be done better/faster/easier for those 35 round matches, i'll probably hafta to back to gg bullets.

    as long as i can see reasonably well with glasses, i'd never wanna mess with scopes of any kind.

  10. #10
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    I was letting my barrel tell me when to fire the next shot. I mentioned earlier about my barrel "singing" when I pushed a dry patch through a clean barrel. When I heard it, I loaded and fired the next shot. I didn't necessarily hear it with 1 wet and 1 dry. It sang when it was ready. I didn't have any unexplained flyers of any sort so I wasn't having any issues there. I just was surprised at how hard the fouling was. I guess I am just used to shooting GG bullets and all of that wonderful lube softening the fouling.

    No problems really, just takes more time starting out. As soon as I get a better feel for my wet patches I suspect things will speed up. I'm under no time limits but my own, but I was slow yesterday. I won't forget what the target looks like as that, in the end, is what I'm interested in.

  11. #11
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    The lack of the lube is contributing to your dry hard foulig also. The grease grooves carrying lube down the bore leave a coating and fine mist of lube to help keep the fouling soft. Some use a thin grease cookie under the PP bullet to provide this lube also. A felt wad impregnated with SPG or emmerts might help here also. On my 40-65 PP loads I use a 3/32 thick spg lube cookie on top of the heavy wad and a playing card wad on top of the grease cookie with a tracing pper wad betweel playing card wad and bullets base. These shoot very well I can get 15 accurate rounds blow tubing and fouling stays soft and easy to remove. I also very lightly wipe my PP bullets with JoJoba oil when seating them. In my 45-90 with the 530 grn PP bullets a 1/8 grease cookie is used. I might try a modified emmerts lube for grrease cookies thts a little "harder" or stiffer. 60% beeswax, 30% crisco unsalted vegtable shortening, 5% canola oil, and 5% lanolin. This should be a pretty stiff lube and help to seal things better alnog with providing a more solid base to push against..

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    however, with just a card wad and no grease cookie i can get in a bunch more powder, making a 45-70 into a virtual 45-90. always a compromise of sorts.

  13. #13
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    I'm not considering it a problem, just not what I was used to. I'll try wetter patches before I go to a lube cookie. The only concern is have about using a lube cookie is buying something else and adding another variable to the mix. The Accurate Molds bullet I have goes in the last 1/8" snug and any fouling from a lube cookie, even if it is softened by a blow tube, may cause problems. I suspect I'll continue wiping with PP bullets until I have a better grasp.

    Accuracy hasn't been a problem here and I know the conditions weren't ideal yesterday. I'm feeling pretty good about the whole process and I bet it will get better.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Shot 45 more today. With no experience with a lube cookie, I figured I would try it. Not as good as I had hoped for a first try. Call it 2.5 MOA.

    I also shot some with thicker wads. To my standard .030" veggie fiber I added a .060" LDPE (.090" total). This shot best so far. A .030" and a .060" (.090" total) veggie fiber was very good, just not as good as the LDPE.

    The hard fouling I was whining about was my fault. Well, getting it out being a chore was my fault. I made sure my patches were closer towards wet, and one wet, flip it, one dry, flip it, and no more fouling. The RH is still very low for South Carolina, so the conditions last weekend was not my problem. Patches that were closer to dry than wet was my problem.

    Much more testing to come, but the rifle already shoots PP more accurately than GG.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    I am shooting my 40-65 with PP bullets over 74.5 gr Swiss 1.5/0.060LDPE wad and then a 0.011 target paper wad.
    I control fouling well with two dist. water wet(squeezed out until not dripping) followed by one dry. Works for me- minute of angle or under.
    and no build up of fouling.
    beltfed/arnie

  16. #16
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    I took the .45-70 barrel off a Pedersoli Bodine rifle, and rebarreled to 40-65 specifically to shoot Paper patch with less recoil than my big sharps 45-110, and have been very pleased with the result accuracy wise, however I'm toying with the idea of re-chambering to a case with more capacity as the 40-65 does not seem to work well out at distances beyond 400 yards. Beyond 400, the bullet gets there, it just is not giving me accuracy. I have tried to compress as much powder as possible into the case, but there is only so much compression that can be obtained, and then it just seems logical to scale up.

  17. #17
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    Catlin, maybe it's your bullet not your chamber or your barrel. What twist is your barrel? What length is your bullet? What weight is your bullet? And what Profile is your bullet? The answers to those questions will likely be helpful in diagnosing the problem. Also, when you say it does not shoot past 400, do the errant shots go low? If they are almost always low, it's the bullet.

  18. #18
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    Brent makes a good point about the bullet. I used his elliptical idea when I had Brooks make my mold. I don't have a range beyond 600 yards, but my Douglas 1-16" does keep the Brooks 40 cal bullet I have stable to 600 yards. I didn't beat 1.5 MOA @ 600 yet, but I'll come back to it when it gets cooler. I haven't been shooting the BPCR's much this year as I happened to pick up a Freedom Arms 83 that has kept my attention.

  19. #19
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    Brent is likely correct about the bullet. I don't shoot paper patched bullets in .40 cal, but my .40-65 grease grooved bullets shoot quite well at the 600 bptr targets.

    DHDeal, don't worry too much about not holding 1.5 minutes of angle total at 600. I've never seen it done in competition. I'm not sure how many perfect scores have been shot at 600, or if any have been shot at all. Certainly 1.5 minutes of angle or less in the vertical direction is doable, but the wind always smears them out horizontally. It would take a very very calm day, or a super skilled wind reader to keep ten shots in the ten ring at that distance.

    Chris.

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Brent's right it's not the chamber in the gun, it's the bullet. The 40-65 is a good midrange cartridge when fed a bullet that is comparable with the barrel twist.
    Chris the national record at 600 yards is 99 6x, it's held by Terry York, heck of a nice guy, and fun to spot for.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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GC Gas Check