Deer are not as big as some seem to believe. I took these a few years ago after a coworker was describing hits on deer that would not be possible unless the was the size of a bull moose.
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Deer are not as big as some seem to believe. I took these a few years ago after a coworker was describing hits on deer that would not be possible unless the was the size of a bull moose.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 10-28-2016 at 04:35 PM.
My Dad and the guys we hunted with--my mentors--taught me to aim through the deer/bear/pig/coyote to its far side front shoulder irrespective of shot angle. I do "pass" on marginal shots or on marginal angles. I do this pretty reflexively after 50+ seasons afield, and the farthest any critter has gone was 20 yards (my most recent deer). I hit it a little farther back than I like. In most cases, my critters drop at the shot or at most make one to two steps.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
I once shot a small buck and left his heart loose in the chest, totally disconnected from its vessels. He ran at a dead run with no blood trail for 35 yards. When I crossed his trail 100 yards later doing a circle walk, there was blood out both sides as if it was poured. He was 15 feet further. I have also gutted deer that the autopsy showed no reason it was fatal other than spinal shock. Animals do weird things, but based only on my experiences a fp 357 is a sure killer on deer chest shots.
[The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze
Excellent graphic. I'm wondering if the lungs might contract a bit at the peak of exhale compared to inhale. Is that possible? Might explain our different experiences.Originally Posted by M-Tecs
I also know of deer that have actually lived through a less-than-devastating lung hit and survived. I would not have believed it had I not witnessed the event. It's usually a one lung hit, but I suppose it could happen with two. Whitetail deer are amazingly resilient.
Last edited by RugerFan; 10-29-2016 at 03:23 AM.
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I can't believe that the OP, apparently an experienced hunter, would condemn a proven hunting boolit after a single bullet failure. Most hunters with much experience know that sometimes a good hit does not drop the animal immediately, regardless of the load used. Other posters here have confirmed this. Of course the OP should use whatever he wants for whatever reason, it to state that the bullet design is at fault is silly.
At least no one has said that the bullet was going "too fast" to transfer energy...
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Therein lies the problem, the wrong boolit gets through before energy. I firmly believe the pressure wave from a big FN will create a secondary channel with no damage and collapses back. You have a hole that skin or fat blocks as the deer moves. Doesn't matter if the hole is .357 or .500.
I am going to quit shooting FMJ's. I now worry about the .44 since I used the same alloy. I will be casting soft points before the next opening day.
thats why I like gas checks and hollow points
less to worry about
save the hard for paper or t/rex
Hit em'hard
hit em'often
44man,
I've been following this thread since the day you started it and I'm only going to suggest you not try to "re-invent the wheel". You've killed over 500 deer in your life so you know where to place your shots. You also have killed them with many different kinds of loads and handguns and you've developed loads that have worked very well already. Stay with what you know works! Don't beat yourself up because you lost one, IT HAPPENS! You weren't negligent in your shot placement or anything else. Yes, maybe your alloy was off from what you've used before but I'm not convinced that caused you to lose this deer. I think its just more like bad luck or Murphy's Law or something along those lines. We've all been doing it right and had failures. I'm very confident you'll fill your freezer this year!
You could be right but my boolits with a pound of stereo added to 19# of WW has a softer BHN but more tin and antimony sure makes them tougher. Straight WW boolits must have been upsetting a little.
Of all the deer I killed with this gun only one made 30 yards, heart shot, the rest just dropped, belly up.Attachment 179707 This was straight WW. She was moving at about 55 yards. I should have stayed with what worked. Searching for more accuracy bit my butt!
Sort of the opinion that basing future actions on a sample of one is sometimes not the best path. As pointed out previously there are many variables in the equation of terminal ballistics, few of which we have any control of.
Never lost a deer or any other piece of big game in my life, but have had some serious tracking adventures. One of the most curious was a whitetail doe that had her heart exploded by a 150 gr Corelokt at a range of about 35 yards. Thru and thru shot, well placed and subsequent events clearly showed that. The heart was little more than fragmented mush. Within the first 30 yards the copious discharge of blood ended, leaving a trail that would have made Sam Peckinpah proud. 30 yards later there was no blood on the ground at all. I had taken the shot in an area of a pine planting and the nearest cover was about 100 yards distant over a dirt road. I proceeded to the point where she had entered the woodline and followed coarse tracks, dropping leafs of toilet paper along the way as the cover was quite dense.
After several changes in direction and about 20 minutes of careful tracking I found her stretched across a large log...close to 200 yards from where she was mortally wounded. Quite a journey without a heart, no????
I have danced with the Devil. She had excellent attorneys.
definitely amazing resilience
Hit em'hard
hit em'often
I agree. The worst ever said is a deer is easy to kill. Based on being small, but they are like a Toyota engine. Maybe the Energizer rabbit!
However I want balance, dead fast with meat to eat. You have seen the horrible pictures I posted. I can't justify a HP with my guns.
They GENERALLY are adequately killed when firearm/ammo combos are used in the manner in of the scenario that the firearm/ammo is designed for. There are exceptions to that statement though, and they can be very resilient at times. Many times with inexperience the firearm/ammo combo is used out of the context it was designed for. Then there are times when they actually do go bang flop unexpectedly from something a bit lighter of the firearm/ammo combo of the norm.
There in the parameters of the "I want balance, dead fast with meat to eat" is the major concern of the firearm/ammo combo and how it is used in its context that many a truer hunter strives for. One other scenario to be considered is the terrain after the shot, whether it is in the grasslands or in a tag alder or cedar swamp and how hard the tracking might be. Shootin a critter and being able to see it run for a 1/4 mile before it drops in the 15 seconds is a lot different than shootin a critter 10 yards out the the thickets with water on the ground.
May you hands be warmed on a frosty day.
I'm sorry you lost that deer. I've seen big bucks drop with one .22 Hornet to the lungs and I've seen small does run a long way shot in the lungs with a 30-06. You can't predict how fast any animal will die. That is above our pay grade. Take tiny comfort in the fact that nature's cleanup crew got fed. Better luck to you in the future. Best, Thomas.
M-tec's pics are very helpful. We do need to remember what the heart & lungs do for the animal. Heart is the pump, lungs are the O2 exchanger. Lung shots stop oxygen to the blood. Heart shots stop the pump. Either MAY cause a large leak. The body attempts to stop the leak/keep vital parts working (like hypothermia). There is still O2 in the blood and muscles & a good dose of adrenalin (survival instinct). A spine/CNS shot MAY drop it. Local nervous system will keep the muscles (legs) moving without the CNS. Hydrostatic shock creates more damage AND can cause nervous system shut down (DownRightThere effect - not DeadRightThere). Otherwise the 'dead deer running' is correct. The loss of a 'game' animal is unfortunate, we don't know what happens. 44man is just trying to correct what he thinks went wrong - all any of use can do. Was the boolit too hard? Who knows. Use soft large HP for lung shots and easy tracking? Use hard and shoulder shots to break legs and immobilize? Super accurate for spine shots? To each his own (choice). I shot a running pig @ 25 with hardcast 40SW - hit the butt, took out the insides and front leg. No blood trail for 50 to the fence where he turned and went another 50 - actually stopped at the fence/treeline. Broken leg didn't slow him any. Blood trail was from the mouth.
Whatever!
When they bleed out complete the don't bleed. I read this as look harder sorry you cannot walk but when you can't, hunt with ones who can and know how to track.
Sorry but on you nothing else matters other than an excuse IMHO. It sucks when you loose a deer but who cares how much experience you have does not change the outcome.
That's a tough loss, sorry you didn't recover the deer. It's amazing how much ground a dead deer can cover. Folks that say it can't happen haven't hunted long enough. It's also amazing how little cover it takes to hide a deer, I've recovered deer that I've walked past more than once. When they crawl into a briar fortress there isn't much we can do.
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Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.
The way it has grown up around here is amazing. We sit in the stands this season and can only see a short way. Had the same problem a few seasons ago with a dead deer. I heard her fall after taking a .44. Pretty close so I just walked over and could not find her. I had blood so started tracking and she was next to a log and I had walked the other side at first. I wasn't more then 10 steps from her but could not see her.
Now the brush is worse so Don wants to come and trim some.
If deer run the other direction, I know where they are going but going behind they will get to the downfalls and without blood you can never find one. I can't even crawl through there. If I did find one I would need a chopper to get one out. Some of the downfalls are 4' around and stacked all over each other with razor blades growing in between.
I got into the stuff once with a nylon orange vest from work. I got caught and friends had to help me get loose. Even hard to get out of the vest!
The funniest I ever seen was my friend with new clothes. That soft stuff. He came back in tatters with even his butt hanging out. Most use canvas when going into the stuff. Rabbit hunting stuff.
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