What are your markmanship standards?

[shootsblanks]

My standards are pretty low compared to alot of shooters to be honest, but higher than alot of hunters i know (one fellow considers himself a sniper for hitting my gong at 100 off a bloody sand bag) for my deer rifle i need to hit a 5" gong 10/10 at 50 standing, at 100 i need to do it sitting and at 150 prone. After that i really dont care.
With my small game load (round ball and titegroup in my 3030) i need to hit the shiny end of a pop can at 25 yards with all 10 shots standing, i body shoot grouse and rabbits, with that load and it looks like i stabbed a pencil through them with 0 meat damage aside from the hole.
Good enough for me.

[fiberoptik]

Welcome to liberal socialist AmeriKa! Hillary's dream!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KCSO]

Hunting rifle Ctg from the bench under 1 1/2" at 100 yards. Off hand 4 inches or better at 100 yards. Varmit rife from the bench under 1/2"

Muzzleloader rifle 42 or better at 100 yards and over 40 Offhand at all distances. Pistol 85 at 50 yards and 88 or better at 25 offhand.

Shotgun trap 23 or better.

[Thumbcocker]

Better than I did the last time I shot.

[44man]

We lose it with age and a few years given back would be great.
I don't want to do things anymore. vacuumed up tons of leaves yesterday. What about next year? Cut the stinking trees down?
Met friends at the party that chew. I do too but a can lasts a week or more, they use a can a day!
My check engine light comes on and I remove a battery cable now to set it.
I drink too much too. Who cares? To claim I can do what I did is silly.

[jcwit]

73 here, and I missed my pipe for 25 years, well guess what, even my Dr's say so what! Love that Half & Half.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I feel this question deserves a response from me, since I just got back form Front Sight.

In order to accurately answer this question you have to break it down into many subsets. Many have already done it so it is not necessary to go into excruciating detail.

However firearms competency is divided into two factors. One is Gun Handling and Safety, the other is the actual hitting of the target.

I see way too many people who don't have very good gun handling skills. I attribute this to the fact that few have ever been taught or if they had, they didn't quite get all the fine points.

Gun Handling Breaks down into two factors. Running the gun, and keeping it pointed in a safe direction. The majority of shooters I see are weak or non existent on the former and fairly OK on the second.

Running the gun means, you can load, unload, and manipulate the weapon system safely and quickly. If the gun is a Semi Auto Rifle or Pistol it means you can insert and remove a magazine or clip into the magazine, lock the slide or bolt open, and be able to clear Type 1,2,and 3 malfunctions as well as performing Emergency and Tactical Reloads. These are basic skills necessary to be competent with these weapons. Most don't even know what a type 1,2 or3 malfunction is.

The intended use for this type of weapon would be self defense or armed conflict. These skills would need to be honed to a very fine edge as your life would probably depend on them.

If using those same Weapons Systems for Hunting or Casual Target Shooting then you would still need to be able to do them, but your life may not depend on your competence, and as such most people would eventually forget how to do them due to lack of use. Then if you did actually need them,,, you'd be screwed. IE; you really need to know how to do this stuff!

Competence requires training and practice. You learn how to do things and then you practice until they are second nature and then you practice some more to maintain those skills.

Marksmanship is the other factor and it is relative to the type of Weapons System and the Distance to the Target.

With a Pistol at Conversational Distances it is often mandatory that you shoot quickly. Thus you won't have time to obtain a Perfect Sight Picture and Trigger Control. However at 3-7 yards it is not necessary as the target is pretty big. The use of what is known as a "Flash Sight Picture" or "Point Shooting" will probably get the job done.

The Quick Draw guys are not looking for sights, they are point shooting. The IDPA or Defensive Shooters are using the "Flash Sight Picture" for the close targets, which is just a looser version of the Perfect Sight Picture. This is all about the angles of shooting at close distances versus longer distances. The closer you are the further your sights can be away from perfect alignment and still be on target.

Obviously as the distance increases the need for a better sight picture increases.

The other factor here is the sight radius of the weapon. Pistols generally have sight radius' of 3-7". Rifles are more like 15-30" and thus the sighting error is greatly reduced and as such the distances can increase.

But the Gorilla in the room here is actually what target are you really going to shoot at.

Sorry to have to make this point,,, but the reality of firearms is that all guns are made to shoot either people or food.

All other uses of firearms are for the enhancement of the skills necessary to perform either of those two primary functions.

So really Minute of Man, or Minute of Deer is the true definition of the accuracy anyone should be trying to achieve.

Anything beyond that just increases your effective range. YMMV.

Randy

[dtknowles]

I feel this question deserves a response from me, since I just got back form Front Sight.

In order to accurately answer this question you have to break it down into many subsets. Many have already done it so it is not necessary to go into excruciating detail.

However firearms competency is divided into two factors. One is Gun Handling and Safety, the other is the actual hitting of the target.

I see way too many people who don't have very good gun handling skills. I attribute this to the fact that few have ever been taught or if they had, they didn't quite get all the fine points.

Gun Handling Breaks down into two factors. Running the gun, and keeping it pointed in a safe direction. The majority of shooters I see are weak or non existent on the former and fairly OK on the second.

Running the gun means, you can load, unload, and manipulate the weapon system safely and quickly. If the gun is a Semi Auto Rifle or Pistol it means you can insert and remove a magazine or clip into the magazine, lock the slide or bolt open, and be able to clear Type 1,2,and 3 malfunctions as well as performing Emergency and Tactical Reloads. These are basic skills necessary to be competent with these weapons. Most don't even know what a type 1,2 or3 malfunction is.

The intended use for this type of weapon would be self defense or armed conflict. These skills would need to be honed to a very fine edge as your life would probably depend on them.

If using those same Weapons Systems for Hunting or Casual Target Shooting then you would still need to be able to do them, but your life may not depend on your competence, and as such most people would eventually forget how to do them due to lack of use. Then if you did actually need them,,, you'd be screwed. IE; you really need to know how to do this stuff!

Competence requires training and practice. You learn how to do things and then you practice until they are second nature and then you practice some more to maintain those skills.

Marksmanship is the other factor and it is relative to the type of Weapons System and the Distance to the Target.

With a Pistol at Conversational Distances it is often mandatory that you shoot quickly. Thus you won't have time to obtain a Perfect Sight Picture and Trigger Control. However at 3-7 yards it is not necessary as the target is pretty big. The use of what is known as a "Flash Sight Picture" or "Point Shooting" will probably get the job done.

The Quick Draw guys are not looking for sights, they are point shooting. The IDPA or Defensive Shooters are using the "Flash Sight Picture" for the close targets, which is just a looser version of the Perfect Sight Picture. This is all about the angles of shooting at close distances versus longer distances. The closer you are the further your sights can be away from perfect alignment and still be on target.

Obviously as the distance increases the need for a better sight picture increases.

The other factor here is the sight radius of the weapon. Pistols generally have sight radius' of 3-7". Rifles are more like 15-30" and thus the sighting error is greatly reduced and as such the distances can increase.

But the Gorilla in the room here is actually what target are you really going to shoot at.

Sorry to have to make this point,,, but the reality of firearms is that all guns are made to shoot either people or food.

All other uses of firearms are for the enhancement of the skills necessary to perform either of those two primary functions.

So really Minute of Man, or Minute of Deer is the true definition of the accuracy anyone should be trying to achieve.

Anything beyond that just increases your effective range. YMMV.

Randy

Hey Randy thanks but you did not answer the question "what are your marksmanship-standards?" Still a good post.

I disagree with "Sorry to have to make this point,,, but the reality of firearms is that all guns are made to shoot either people or food." My bench rest rifle is a gun and a firearm but is not made to shoot either people or food, it is made to shoot inedible paper.

Again, you post was good but you need to open your aperture a little.

Another aside, some of us don't worry about sight radius much we shoot using scopes or reflex sights or laser pointers.

I am not sure the OP was even a bit interested is self defense shooting standards or running the gun but maybe we can here from him.

Those subjects might be worth a thread of their own.

Tim

[220]

I disagree with "Sorry to have to make this point,,, but the reality of firearms is that all guns are made to shoot either people or food." My bench rest rifle is a gun and a firearm but is not made to shoot either people or food, it is made to shoot inedible paper.

I have a few pistols that are the same, designed from the ground up to do nothing more than punch holes in paper as effectively as possible within the rules of the match.
Im thinking specifically of euro manufactured centrefires for ISSF. Chambered for 32s&wl wadcutter, magazine forward in design, 5 shot capacity because that is all that is needed for the event, full orthopaedic grips that in some cases are actually part of the frame so can not be removed or swapped. Every detail of these has been designed with the sole purpose of punching holes in paper at 25m as effectively as possible while standing and shooting one handed. Heck they don't even lock the action open on the last shot because to do so would change the recoil dynamics ever so slightly from the previous 4 shots and may result in the last shot going a fraction of a inch different to the previous shots.
Sure the fact they launch a projectile means they could be used for hunting or self defence but it would be like trying to use a Nascar or F1 car to get the family to church on Sunday.

[tdoyka]

it depends...

over a bench doing deer, its .5" at 100 yards
over a bench doing groundhog, its .2" at 100 yards.

in the field doing a deer, its roughly 4" circle.
in the field doing a groundhog, its roughly 2" circle.

but if you tell anybody, its a half inch at 2 miles thru a 50mph crosswind both ways!!!!

[fatelk]

Sorry to have to make this point,,, but the reality of firearms is that all guns are made to shoot either people or food.

My dad thinks this way too, and as such he hates guns. He supports the right to own guns, but for some reason whenever he hold one he sees death and just personally hates them. He hates that I am so interested in them and collect them.

[dtknowles]

My dad thinks this way too, and as such he hates guns. He supports the right to own guns, but for some reason whenever he hold one he sees death and just personally hates them. He hates that I am so interested in them and collect them.

After coming back from the South Pacific after the end of WWII my father was not at all interested in guns. When it was time to learn about guns he took us to my Maine Guide Uncle Adin Green. He then bought us a single shot bolt .22, then a single shot 20 gauge. Then he got my brother and I each a "Deer" rifle, I got a model 94 in 30-30 and my brother got a Sporter 6.5 Carcano.

Tim

[W.R.Buchanan]

Sorry to have to make this point,,, but the reality of firearms is that all guns are made to shoot either people or food.

All other uses of firearms are for the enhancement of the skills necessary to perform either of those two primary functions.

So really Minute of Man, or Minute of Deer is the true definition of the minimum accuracy anyone should be trying to achieve.

Anything beyond that just increases your effective range. YMMV.

Randy

Tim: Your Bench Rest Rifle only increases the effective range you can operate in,,, which directly translates to being able to control more area on a battlefield. Sure that gun is designed specifically to shoot small groups in targets at a long distance but that discipline translates directly to the Shooting Skills of a Sniper on the battlefield, or a Hunter trying to stalk an elusive prey. The top Bench Rest Shooter in my Club shot an Elk at a lazered 968 yards a few years ago with his Hunting Rifle. His skills obtained from shooting BR gave him the ability and confidence to be able to make that shot. you BR gun could probably make that shot as well.

All Bullseye Pistol Shooting is designed as non lethal practice for conflict. IE: Developing Sight Alignment and Trigger Control for when you are using the gun for Defensive Purposes. In the case of moving targets, more of the same, but in the real world your adversaries are not stupid, and are constantly moving, so your chances of making a shot on a stationary target are limited, thus the need to practice on moving targets. (Bianchi Cup?) Open Class Bianchi guns are not generally used for Self Defense but they would certainly work in a pinch.

All Shotgun Sports are designed as practice for Field Shooting. Trap, Skeet Sporting Clays. Why do you think the targets are called "Clay Pigeons?"

All Combat Oriented Games (3 gun comps, ISPC, IDPA etc.) are just that,,, Practice for Armed Conflict. (Would you try to rob a house if you knew an IDPA or 3 Gun Champ lived there?)

The competition only makes practicing and developing advanced shooting skills more fun, so you are more likely to do it. It also removes the Moral Dilemma of shooting at people or shooting at game that is not needed for survival.

In medieval England an Archer was required to shoot a competition at least once a month, and this was done so he could not only keep his skills up but his muscle tone as well. A 120lb Long Bow requires a lot of exercise to maintain.

All of the these skills come under the heading of Marksmanship.

Sure some guns are specialized for whatever discipline they were designed to compete in,,, but I submit that those same guns could perform the same tasks that their games were designed to mimic in either the field or in battle if called on to do so.

I have many rifles, pistols, and shotguns. Few have been shot at living things, but all are quite capable of doing so. There is a saying,,,, "Any gun will do, if you will do."

To answer your original question,,, my accuracy standards are to shoot better this time than the last time no matter what I'm shooting. My rifles vary in accuracy from under 1" to over 3" at one hundred yards. My Ruger Scout and Guide Gun are the most accurate at under 1". My Enfield#4 and other Sporters and Marlin Leverguns are under 2", and my Mini14 is around 2.5-3.

Most of my rifles are sighted in dead on a 200 yards, and whatever the group size is at that range is what I have to live with. However in practical application my Mini14 at 3"/100 yards still 9" at 300 yards which is the effective range of the .223/5.56 cartridge and still in the Chest Cavity of a man sized target. So that is good enough for that gun and off a rest I can make that shot at 200 yards every single time using a inexpensive Red Dot Sighting System.

So I guess my accuracy standards REALLY ARE,,,, "Good Enough for what I'm doing."

When I hit a Silhouette Ram at 500 Meters Offhand it is a pretty satisfying experience.

But it makes me dead sure that I could hit a Man at that distance every single time laying on the ground shooting off a rest. Thus that game enhances my skills for Long Range Shooting. Mind you, I am lucky to hit 1 or 2 out of 10 offhand, but off a rest as a result of that practice, I know exactly how much to dial into the Scope or Rear Sight, and that is because I have shot the gun at those distances and recorded the elevation offsets, and as a result I can hit with virtually every single shot.

Conversely my Glock 21 is probably a 4" gun at 25 yards so if I can keep all my shots in the chest at that distance I am jumping up and down.

And with that said, I see little reason to chase after "the" "Most Accurate Load for a Given Gun." As soon as the gun shoots well enough for it's intended purpose,,,, I'm done searching.

Thus my Standard Load for that gun has been found, and my accuracy standard has been met.

Randy

[jcwit]

With your logic I guess my car is designed as a deadly weapon as its very capable of mowing down bystanders.

[dtknowles]

Tim: Your Bench Rest Rifle only increases the effective range you can operate in,,, which directly translates to being able to control more area on a battlefield. Sure that gun is designed specifically to shoot small groups in targets at a long distance but that discipline translates directly to the Shooting Skills of a Sniper on the battlefield, or a Hunter trying to stalk an elusive prey. The top Bench Rest Shooter in my Club shot an Elk at a lazered 968 yards a few years ago with his Hunting Rifle. His skills obtained from shooting BR gave him the ability and confidence to be able to make that shot. you BR gun could probably make that shot as well.....Randy

My bench rest rifle has a stock that would be awkward in the field to say the least. It is chambered in 6mm PPC and would not be very effective beyond 200 yards as it has a slow twist and will only shoot light for caliber bullets and it has such a light trigger that it would be dangerous in the field. It is a single shot and does not have a safely when I want to safe the gun I remove the bolt. I shoot it free recoil, I don't put my shoulder to the stock.

I shoot other types many useful against game or in selfdefense. The one thing that I can take from bench rest shooting that apply to other shooting is doping the wind.

Tim

[RugerFan]

When I was hunting deer and hogs in GA, my goal for shooting cast in my scoped rifles in .30 and .35 cal was MOA @ 2,000 FPS. With careful load development I was generally able to achieve this with the exception of my #4 Mark 1/2 in .303 British. 1,800 FPS seemed to be the best I could do and hold decent accuracy. Still killed a spike buck very cleanly at 50 yards, so no big deal.

[Reverend Al]

When I was much younger (20's) I held myself to fairly high standards and worked very hard to be competitive in the shooting sports. When I was shooting competitive IPSC I shot twice a week, about 500 rounds per practice session, and averaged 50,000 rounds per year. For five years I had no life except cast, load, shoot, then repeat again for the next week. If I wasn't winning matches on a regular basis I felt I was not attaining the accuracy standards I had set for myself. As I got older my eyes got worse, my joints started to ache, a back injury from a car accident got progressively worse, and my knees are now at the point where replacement will likely be needed within a few more years. (I'm 63 now ...) I don't hold myself to the same accuracy standards for handgun, rifle or shotgun that I achieved in my youth since I no longer practice nearly as much, but I can still hold my own when I feel up to shooting along side the "young pups". I consider myself a better than average handgun shot, can still get reasonable hits on 100 and 200 yard targets with a rifle offhand if I don't drink too much coffee first, and shoot better than average scores on the Trap and Skeet field when I feel up to standing for that long. I'm definitely not the shot I used to be 30 years ago, but I still shoot well enough to be competitive and I'm happy with that considering all the factors ...

I've now gotten to the point in my life that I'm coaching and mentoring new shooters more often than I'm shooting myself and I'm also very happy with that as I find it very encouraging that there is a new generation who are actually showing an interest in the shooting sports!

[BigboreShooter]

I've told my wife many times.I'm not that good,everybody else is really bad!!!!

BigboreShooter

[W.R.Buchanan]

With your logic I guess my car is designed as a deadly weapon as its very capable of mowing down bystanders.

Why do you think they put those Big Bumpers on the front?

Randy

[jonp]