Why is a "38" not a 38?

[adcoch1]

So I just saw a post about 38's and the guy made reference to playing with them and then went on to list some mold sizes, not a single one over .360. Makes me wonder why I never have asked why a .357 bore is titled a "38"?

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[georgerc]

I guess back when they came up with the 38, which later became 38 long than 38 special, than 357mag/max, well they weren't using micrometers, maybe just eyeballed it yeahhh that looks about a .38 we'll call it that.

[georgerc]

ahhh, didn't know that

[BK7saum]

Frim wikipedia

The .38 Short Colt (.38 SC) / .38 Short Center Fire (.38 SCF) was a heeled bullet cartridge intended for metallic cartridge conversions of the .36 cal cap & ball Colt 1851 Navy Revolver from the American Civil War era.[1]

Later, this cartridge was fitted with a 0.359" diameter inside-lubricated bullet in the 125–135 grain range.[2][3]

The original 38s were 0.38" and heeled like a 22 rimfire to be the same diameter as the case.

[adcoch1]

I was wondering the same thing about heeled bullets, was just about to go Google it but then I saw the above post. The development of 357 mag makes sense, but as a lover of all things 44(.429) I have a tendency to ignore .357 stuff up until recently...

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[country gent]

Handguns 38 are .357 dia for the above reasons but 38 caliber rifles ( 375 H+H, 38-55, 375 win ect) are .375 or there abouts. Same with 25 caliber pistols are .251 and rifles are .257 dia. 45 cal pistols are .451-.452 and 45 caliber rifles are nominally .457. Things can get interesting

[Thumbcocker]

Always wondered why the Govt. didn't standardize .45 rifle and pistol bore diameters so they could use the same reamers etc. like the Russians did with Mosigns and Tokerov pistols

[adcoch1]

I've tracked down most of these variations over the years, and getting back into reloading has made this even more so, but I really must have had my head in the sand about the 38 development to have missed the heeled bullet thing. I probably just forgot, but I'm too young to be blaming my memory yet...

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[Ballistics in Scotland]

This drawing is for the .32 Long Rimfire and .32 Long Rifle, but it shows the transition which many centrefires made. Some, not all, employed a hollow base or fairly wide lubegrooves to permit passable, though perhaps not really good, accuracy with the wrong version.



The early .38s used a case and bullet which were both close to .38in. Then the .38S&W and .38 Special used a .357 bullet, matching a revolver throat and groove diameter of about .357in., in the same case. So they didn't change the name.

When they lengthened it to a magnum version, however, pressures were much higher, and S&W advertised it as suitable only for men of powerful physique. With all sorts of chamberings around, it was an extremely important safety issue to deter people from using the new ammunition in guns not expressly built for it. Changing the name was part of that. We see the same thing with the .375 Winchester, which could be fired in a rifle built for, and only safe with, the .38-55.

[Blackwater]

As I understand it, and there are many stories and theories, the original cap n' ball revolvers were mostly ".36 caliber," with groove diameters of near .360". They shot round balls of .380" diameter, but the guns were called "36 caliber." Then, when we changed over to brass cartridges rather than loose powder and caps, the barrels were used as is, and the bullet size reduced to match the barrels. They no longer had to be larger than the groove diameter to shoot accurately. Somehow, and I don't recall how, they began calling them "38's," because the old balls had been .380 cal. in the cap n' ball guns. It's pretty confusing, and as with many historical things, it's very hard to know what the real story is, but I've seen it, and can't remember. That's what I remember of it, anyway.

[JeffinNZ]

So I just saw a post about 38's and the guy made reference to playing with them and then went on to list some mold sizes, not a single one over .360. Makes me wonder why I never have asked why a .357 bore is titled a "38"?

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Originally they were when the cartridges were loaded with outside lubricated bullets with a heel. Think about the .22RF. The bullet is .22 nominal the same as the outside of the case and uses a reduced diameter heel (.214) that fits inside the case mouth. When inside lubricated (what we use now) bullets were adopted the diameter of the bullet had to be reduced to fit inside the case so the inside diameter of the case dictated the bullet diameter whereas prior to that the outside case diameter did.

The .44-40 is a really good example. Modern bullets for the .44-40 will be nominal .428 to fit inside the case. Originally they would have been .44 nominal.

You will notice my liberal use of the word 'nominal'. This is because tolerances in the past were generous.

[dtknowles]

I don't think we are getting the whole story here yet. The 1851 was a 36 caliber handgun and the modern 38's are 36 caliber handguns, the only real .38's were the .38 colts with healed bullets and they still came out the barrel of the 1851 conversions as 36's right?

I think Smith and Wesson called them .38 for marketing because if you called them .36's then they would be smaller than the .38 Colts. Nobody wanted to be smaller.

Has anyone slug the bore of an old Colt New Line or Lightning in .38 Long Colt, what do those barrels run are any of them over .370 inches. I don't imagine shooting a .375 healed bullet down a .380 bore worked very well.

There were rifles in .38 rimfire or .38 Colt too, what were those barrels groove diameter.

Tim

[dragon813gt]

If everything went to metric I would be happy. 9mm and 10mm just make sense

[Hickory]

The cap and ball revolvers in 36 caliber were just that, . . .36 caliber.
When S&W patented the brass self-contained cartridge this locked out all others until the parent expired. When the patent ran out there was a scramble by a lot of arms manufacturers to build cartridge guns. Manufacturer such as Colt had a lot of cap&ball revolves and parts on hand when this happened. To utilize the guns and parts, the first cartridge guns were open top just like the cap & ball revolvers were. The cylinders were also cap & ball cylinders modified to accept the cartridges. Because these cylinders were bored straight through, the cartridges were loaded with heeled bullets, just like the 22 rimfire.
When Colt introduced the 1873 Peacemaker, they kept the same bore & groove diameters as the cap & ball revolvers. They improve the cylinder by adding a forcing cone and the move away from heeled bullet began.

There is more to tell but I'll let others do that.

[wyofool]

If everything went to metric I would be happy. 9mm and 10mm just make sense

Sure but what fun would that be!

[Oyeboten]

If everything went to metric I would be happy. 9mm and 10mm just make sense

I'l soon be loading a bunch of 11.5x23R, and some more 7.94x33.4R, if that makes you feel any better.

[TXGunNut]

A 38 handgun is most likely a .36 bore, but then again so is a 35 rifle. A 38 rifle could be a .375 or a .380, depends on who made it and when. A 44 is much closer to a .43 caliber but I guess "44" sounds better; almost as cool as "444". Some 32 cartridges are closer to .31 but the 32 Special is a bit over .32. In the grand old BP carbine/pistol cartridges the 25-20 shoots a .257 boolit, the 32-20 a .313 boolit, the 44-40 a .429 boolit and the 38-40 shoots a .401 boolit so this confusion has been going on for a long time. It all makes sense until you start reloading (or more accurately, measuring) these cartridges with misleading names.
Forgot to mention my favorite caliber, the 45. I have a percussion revolver (or two) that shoot .451 round balls, but they're not "45's". Some of my 45 handguns shoot .452 boolits, others .454. My 45 rifles generally shoot .46 caliber boolits.

[dtknowles]

......................When Colt introduced the 1873 Peacemaker, they kept the same bore & groove diameters as the cap & ball revolvers. They improve the cylinder by adding a forcing cone and the move away from heeled bullet began..............

The forcing cone is not in the cylinder it is in the barrel. You are thinking about the throat.

Tim

[Malamute]

Always wondered why the Govt. didn't standardize .45 rifle and pistol bore diameters so they could use the same reamers etc. like the Russians did with Mosigns and Tokerov pistols

Didn't really matter, the rifles and handguns weren't made in the same factories.

As I understand it, and there are many stories and theories, the original cap n' ball revolvers were mostly ".36 caliber," with groove diameters of near .360". They shot round balls of .380" diameter, but the guns were called "36 caliber." Then, when we changed over to brass cartridges rather than loose powder and caps, the barrels were used as is, and the bullet size reduced to match the barrels. They no longer had to be larger than the groove diameter to shoot accurately. Somehow, and I don't recall how, they began calling them "38's," because the old balls had been .380 cal. in the cap n' ball guns. It's pretty confusing, and as with many historical things, it's very hard to know what the real story is, but I've seen it, and can't remember. That's what I remember of it, anyway.

The bore was 36 cal (bore being the size of the hole before rifling was cut, and what ends up being the tops of the lands of the rifling), the groove diameter was 375-380".

The cap and ball revolvers in 36 caliber were just that, . . .36 caliber.
When S&W patented the brass self-contained cartridge this locked out all others until the parent expired. When the patent ran out there was a scramble by a lot of arms manufacturers to build cartridge guns. Manufacturer such as Colt had a lot of cap&ball revolves and parts on hand when this happened. To utilize the guns and parts, the first cartridge guns were open top just like the cap & ball revolvers were. The cylinders were also cap & ball cylinders modified to accept the cartridges. Because these cylinders were bored straight through, the cartridges were loaded with heeled bullets, just like the 22 rimfire.
When Colt introduced the 1873 Peacemaker, they kept the same bore & groove diameters as the cap & ball revolvers. They improve the cylinder by adding a forcing cone and the move away from heeled bullet began.

There is more to tell but I'll let others do that.

A 38 handgun is most likely a .36 bore, but then again so is a 35 rifle. A 38 rifle could be a .375 or a .380, depends on who made it and when. A 44 is much closer to a .43 caliber but I guess "44" sounds better; almost as cool as "444". Some 32 cartridges are closer to .31 but the 32 Special is a bit over .32. In the grand old BP carbine/pistol cartridges the 25-20 shoots a .257 boolit, the 32-20 a .313 boolit, the 44-40 a .429 boolit and the 38-40 shoots a .401 boolit so this confusion has been going on for a long time. It all makes sense until you start reloading (or more accurately, measuring) these cartridges with misleading names.
Forgot to mention my favorite caliber, the 45. I have a percussion revolver (or two) that shoot .451 round balls, but they're not "45's". Some of my 45 handguns shoot .452 boolits, others .454. My 45 rifles generally shoot .46 caliber boolits.

It is confusing, but you hit the nail on the head when you said 36's bore (not groove) was 36 cal. I believe its the same for the 44 percussion guns. England did the same with their 303 rifle, the bore was .303", the groove diameter was .311-ish.

[Malamute]

Originally they were when the cartridges were loaded with outside lubricated bullets with a heel. Think about the .22RF. The bullet is .22 nominal the same as the outside of the case and uses a reduced diameter heel (.214) that fits inside the case mouth. When inside lubricated (what we use now) bullets were adopted the diameter of the bullet had to be reduced to fit inside the case so the inside diameter of the case dictated the bullet diameter whereas prior to that the outside case diameter did.

The .44-40 is a really good example. Modern bullets for the .44-40 will be nominal .428 to fit inside the case. Originally they would have been .44 nominal.

You will notice my liberal use of the word 'nominal'. This is because tolerances in the past were generous.

If I understand what you meant, then you were assuming all cartridges were heeled bullets at some point, which isn't correct. 44-40 never was, nor was 45 Colt and most other cartridges designed from the ground up instead of being a stopgap like the 38 colt for percussion conversions. 22 LR is the lone holdout of heeled bullets today, most other incarnations of them fell by the wayside. I think the 38 Short Colt and 41 Long Colt at the only ones that ended up having chambers and ammo change over time to inside lubed type after originally being heeled.