Subsonic .308 with bullseye?

[Kveldulv]

So I have been working up a load with bullseye powder to keep it under 1090fps for a subsonic .308 load. Here are my specs and results;

.308 once fired lake city brass cut to 2.006" after full length sizing
Lee 170gr .309 flat point mold no gas check
liquid Alex tumble lube
wheel weight alloy water dropped
wolf magnum large rifle primers
bullseye 5.4-5.6gr
light taper crimp
fps - 1060-1098
groip size - 1moa

the results are more than enough than what I need in a sub load but the reason I come here for questions is because I reciently spoke to an Alliant marketing agent who tells me using bullseye with such low loads is very dangerous because there could end up being a hang fire one day which will result in the bullet being being a squib before the charge goes off which then will result in the equivent of an obstructed barrel explosion aka pipe bomb...

this has me worried and the marketing rep refered me to using red dot instead. He also advised me to research "the load" by ED Harris.

On on my research I found the load by ed Harris but also more info showing results from ed Harris also using bullseye in 5gr with a 125gr cast bullet. Researching further shows that red dot is so close to bullseye it is almost interchanable (almost is the key here)

now I am scratching my head... he referee me to ed Harris info on the load which shows a viable (safe) sub load using bullseye at less grains than I am using with a lighter bullet...

can someone shed some light for me on the dire warnings of using bullseye in a .308 for a subsonic load or the was this marketing rep just mistaken?

[Artful]

He was not mistaken - and I have used RedDot for subsonic but I actually found Trailboss is a better powder for subsonic 308. Start out 14 grains and work your way down to your preferred velocity. It's not prone to detonation or hang fire and not position sensitive.

[Jniedbalski]

I have used bullseye as light as 2.8 and 3.2 grains with the 100 grain lead rnfp 32 pistole bullet. I have also used 5 or 6 grains with the 130 and 160 grain bullets with great results.I would also like to know about this also because I have been using bullseye a lot In 308. Trail boss red dot and bullseye are all fast . I thought the problem was loading down a slower powder

[farmerjim]

I have been using Herco in subsonic 308. I got the load out of an article referenced in this forum. I have not sent the 170 grain lee through the chrony yet, but at 8 grains it does not have the sonic crack.(I have lots of Herco not much trail boss)

[dg31872]

I will be watching this with interest also.
I do not have Bullseye or Red dot, but do have a good supply of Tightgroup, which I understand is close to Bullseye in slow loads.
I think I read that in Mr Harris' postings here or elsewhere.

[Tackleberry41]

I have been using S1000 which is really close to Bullseye in burn rate in my subsonic stuff. A 30-30 im only using 6 gr, a 7.62x54 its only 8.1gr w a 230gr cast, or 12 gr in a 45-70 w a 500gr. I have never had an issue. Loaded somebody else's 308 with the same powder and it worked really well. And doubt detonation would be an issue with extreme spread on 5 shoot groups of less than 10fps, seems like its burning really well. Now I did have issues in 223 with trailboss and titegroup. Trailboss worked, but gave 200fps spreads. Titegroup I quit using real quick when I nearly had stuck bullets.

[rancher1913]

I think it has to do with bullseye being position sensitive, maybe a filler would get around that.

[35remington]

Bullseye has been so commonly used for light loads in rifle cartridges in so many different cartridges that if there was a clear problem there would have been clear evidence by now.

You got "advice" likely from a young rep who doesn't load much nor knows Bulleye's historical provenance. Want to know about an example of my take on it that is the result of vastly more experience with Bullseye for such light loads?

Look up "lopsided wadcutters in a .308" in a search here. This is but a single example of such usage. Examples of every type that has occurred would clearly categorize his statement as the utter nonsense it is. Look for the sticky about mouse fart loads for the '06 and see how many testimonials there are to the use of Bullseye, and from whom.

[Outpost75]

I think it has to do with bullseye being position sensitive, maybe a filler would get around that.

NO! Don't use fillers with the fast-burning pistol and shotgun powders! Good way to ring your chamber or blow up a rifle!

[KenH]

I remember "back in the day" (40 yrs ago?) when shooting really low power loads we would position the powder by raising the muzzle vertical before each shot with the idea of causing the powder to fall to rear of case, then as rifle was lowered to firing position the powder would (should?) assume a position to the rear of case allowing consistent burn each time. Was this a valid idea?

Ken H>

[rancher1913]

NO! Don't use fillers with the fast-burning pistol and shotgun powders! Good way to ring your chamber or blow up a rifle!

well ok then, was just a random thought, guess it needs to stay random.

[Outpost75]

I remember "back in the day" (40 yrs ago?) when shooting really low power loads we would position the powder by raising the muzzle vertical before each shot with the idea of causing the powder to fall to rear of case, then as rifle was lowered to firing position the powder would (should?) assume a position to the rear of case allowing consistent burn each time. Was this a valid idea? Ken H>

That works and is good practice. But with easily-ignited, "fluffy" powders like Red Dot or Trail Boss, entirely unnecessary.
Good idea with the "dense" powders like Bullseye or TiteGroup which occupy very little space in the case.

[Michael J. Spangler]

The big benefit of red dot (also clays for that matter)
Is that it's very bulky.
Do a side by side comparison of the volume of 5.5 grains of bullseye to 5.5 grains of red dot
A quick look at a Lee dipper chart shows that the same weigh of red dot is about 50% more volume than the bullseye.
Another comparison is that trail boss is about twice the volume of bullseye for the same charge weight.




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[StratsMan]

... I reciently spoke to an Alliant marketing agent who tells me using bullseye with such low loads is very dangerous because there could end up being a hang fire one day which will result in the bullet being being a squib before the charge goes off which then will result in the equivent of an obstructed barrel explosion aka pipe bomb...

While "pipe bombs" do happen, I've noticed it's usually a result of more than one factor. Just because someone uses BullsEye (or RedDot, or TrailBoss, etc) and has a blow-up, doesn't mean the low charge was necessarily the problem... People are too quick to jump onto a single known item as "The Cause", whereas it was probably a double (or triple!) charge of a fast burning powder that was the real culprit.

As far as a charge going off after a 'squib'... heck, I've cleared many a squib from a 38 Special that way... (I had a few problems when I started loading for revolvers...) With squib in the barrel, I put ~2.5 grains of BullsEye in a case, with a light paper wad to prevent the powder from spilling out, then put it in the cylinder and pulled the trigger... No indication of high pressure, and the bullet was so slow you could practically watch it go down range... I know, a revolver is naturally vented... YMMV

[Artful]

That works and is good practice. But with easily-ignited, "fluffy" powders like Red Dot or Trail Boss, entirely unnecessary.
Good idea with the "dense" powders like Bullseye or TiteGroup which occupy very little space in the case.

Actually in my testing in 308 red dot did show position sensitivity.
Most powders do - so that's why Trailboss is best in my opinion.

Here's a link if you want more info
http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/sh...p?t=280&page=3
My experiments from 2007 start at post #30

End of my experimentation what when I bought machined reduced capacity cases in 308 that allowed a full load of Trailboss to not shift around and was consistent if first pointed up or down before firing and gave as good a group as the rifle did with full power ammo at subsonic ranges.

[Kveldulv]

Bullseye has been so commonly used for light loads in rifle cartridges in so many different cartridges that if there was a clear problem there would have been clear evidence by now.

You got "advice" likely from a young rep who doesn't load much nor knows Bulleye's historical provenance. Want to know about an example of my take on it that is the result of vastly more experience with Bullseye for such light loads?

Look up "lopsided wadcutters in a .308" in a search here. This is but a single example of such usage. Examples of every type that has occurred would clearly categorize his statement as the utter nonsense it is. Look for the sticky about mouse fart loads for the '06 and see how many testimonials there are to the use of Bullseye, and from whom.

This is very reassuring to know that bullseye is fine for sub loads. I have used bullseye between both .308 and 7.62x54r without any signs of over pressure and i have heard of accounts of people squibing with bullseye and continuing the fire round after round until they have stacked up 4 squibs in the barrel with no grenade effects. This was in a rifle rather than a revolver so there was no venting.

QuickLoads shows me that the pressure so are low that even if there was a delay fire it shouldn't cause any ill effects but i am not ballistician and would prefer to keep my fingers, eyes, face and most of all life.

I have heard that many cowboy action shooters have been using bullseye in sub loads for many many years with .30 cal bottle neck casings without any issues but again all this has been hear say and no documentation that i could find to support it (Other than the mention from Ed Harris showing 5gr bullseye under a 125gr lead boolit.)

Someone below has mentioned the IMR TrailBoss which is a nice powder when i run it through the QuickLOADs it shows to fill over 50% of the case with just 8gr of powder that estimates around 1050-1090 FPS for a 170gr cast bullet. I might entertain that but would prefer to stick with bullseye as i have 6lbs sitting next to me that i use for my .45 ACP reloads.

I would love to hear from Ed Harris on this matter.

[Jniedbalski]

My light bullseye loads are extremely accurate. I got my info on this forum from Edd Harris article and a few others here. I first started out trying the 308 round ball load. It was decent accuracy wise but not very far. Also it was a pain for me to load. I then tried the 100 grain boolet the 130 noe and the lee 160 sks boolet sized to .310. The five to 6 grains load at 25 and 50 yards shoot as good as a good 22 target load.. There really fun and cheep to shoot cheaper than I can buy 22 lr locally. Every body I let shoot this load really like them . I was hoping that I didint need to find another load. They shoot so good I haven't tried the red dot or the 2400 loads yet

[fecmech]

I use BE a lot in the 30-30. It runs 1.5-2 moa@100 yds with 130 to150 gr bullets. IMO is is NOT position sensitive. The following loads were chronographed with no attempt to position the powder. Loads were removed from the container, loaded and shot. The following data are all 10 shot strings. The first 7.0/BE/311466=1301 fps,es 18 fps, sd 5 fps. Next 7.0/BE/Lee155 AK bullet/1272 fps,22 es,6 sd. Next 5.0/BE/311410(130 gr) 1140 fps,es19, sd5. With extreme velocity spreads of 20 fps and less, SD's in the single digits Bullseye is hardly position sensitive in my mind.

[35remington]

If you want to know if a powder is position sensitive, deliberately position the powder near primer and near bullet and find out for sure. Failing to do so is essentially not answering the question.

[fecmech]

Position sensitivity to my mind means something that would effect the velocity in normal usage and show up as large extreme spreads between shots. With BE in a 30-30 case the volume is so small that the primer pretty well mixes things up for ignition and it (BE) ignites easily. Also in the course of loading and firing my rifle for my testing at some point I'm sure powder was forward, some back etc, yet es and sd were very uniform. In normal usage I don't hold my rifle straight up or straight down and then carefully and slowly raise or lower it so as not to disturb the powder position before I shoot. If I have uniform velocities and good accuracy in normal usage that's all I want.