Hi tek scraping off in sizing die

[Petander]

Funny to hear the Hi-Tek drones denigrate PC. Is it possible that either or both work just fine??? Seems likely. Is it possible Hi-Tek is not perfect??? Certain it is not perfect. Nothing is perfect. Don't push nonsense to bash PC. BTW, from what I have seen from Hi-Tek since he joined, is zero support of this forum while many members buy his product. His choice, but Lee Precision puts up money and blaming a sizing die for product failure is dissembling at its worst.

So instead of helping the original poster you decided to turn this into a personal attack, accompanied with lies against "Zero supporting" Hi-Tek and His Drones. Your choice.

Back to the topic:

I have used WW, range scrap,lino,mono,pure... and all kinds of mixes. No matter what my "mystery alloy mix" is, it has some contaminants that prevent proper coating cure unless I clean my bullets by soaking them in HCL overnight.

Here you can see three shiny bullets as cast,the rest have been HCL-cleaned. PC or HT curing is completely different with those shiny bullets,they fail in mysterious ways. Cleaned bullets work great.

If things go wrong it may be a good idea to test-soak some bullets and see if they sizzle and change appearance.



Attachment 229510

[HI-TEK]

I have used WW, range scrap,lino,mono,pure... and all kinds of mixes. No matter what my "mystery alloy mix" is, it has some contaminants that prevent proper coating cure unless I clean my bullets by soaking them in HCL overnight.

Here you can see three shiny bullets as cast,the rest have been HCL-cleaned. PC or HT curing is completely different with those shiny bullets,they fail in mysterious ways. Cleaned bullets work great.

If things go wrong it may be a good idea to test-soak some bullets and see if they sizzle and change appearance.



Attachment 229510

Petander,
I wonder if the soaked cast can be magnified, to see surface effects more close up after acid soaking.
I would love to be able to take a picture of a magnified acid etched surface.
I wonder what metals were pickled from surface of the casts?
There is a way to find out, with a Laboratory, that can screen/display/identify several metals simultaneously from solutions by Atomic Absorption.
My guess is, possibility of Magnesium, Zinc, Aluminium, all which all react with a fizz with the acid.
Once these are etched/dissolved from surface of cast, the coating gets double benefits,
one is, a larger surface area to bond, and two, no undesirable metal to interfere with bonding.
The most beneficial part of this acid soaking/treatment, is the ability for people to use all sorts of, as you say "mystery Metals" of unknown composition, as long as hardness is suitable for end use.

[Dragonheart]

I have used WW, range scrap,lino,mono,pure... and all kinds of mixes. No matter what my "mystery alloy mix" is, it has some contaminants that prevent proper coating cure unless I clean my bullets by soaking them in HCL overnight.

Here you can see three shiny bullets as cast,the rest have been HCL-cleaned. PC or HT curing is completely different with those shiny bullets,they fail in mysterious ways. Cleaned bullets work great.

If things go wrong it may be a good idea to test-soak some bullets and see if they sizzle and change appearance.
Attachment 229510

I have been powder coating range scrap for the last 6 years and have never had a problem with the coating adhering with either spray or tumble methods, assuming I am using a suitable powder for the application and the humidity is not excessive, both of which could be your problem. Range scrap contains a wide assortment of contaminates; dirt, sand, plastics, wood, various other metals and elements. I would have to suspect your problem is the bullets are getting contaminated after the leave the mold, most likely from a water drop.

[jmort]

^^^^^ Bingo

[40sand9s]

Wow it's interesting to see how this post has risen from the dead. Someone brought up that the issue could be from the turret not being stable which could be it plus it was mounted on my bench that does have some give to it. I tried it with NOE and Lee sizing dies and they were all scraping both hi tek and pc so stability could play a role and show why both were having issues. I decided to try a different casting die and went with Lee tumble dies with no sizing so problem solved.

[Petander]

Wow it's interesting to see how this post has risen from the dead. Someone brought up that the issue could be from the turret not being stable which could be it plus it was mounted on my bench that does have some give to it. I tried it with NOE and Lee sizing dies and they were all scraping both hi tek and pc so stability could play a role and show why both were having issues. I decided to try a different casting die and went with Lee tumble dies with no sizing so problem solved.

Excellent. How much were you downsizing,I might have missed that? Can you post some smashed bullet pics?

FWIW I do not water drop.

Waiting for XRF results right now. My stored WW/Lino alloy and old bullets stay chromed-looking for decades. Lots of tin plus who knows what,I suspect Fe from the smelting pot. Zinc is always a possibility,unfortunately.

[popper]

I use a Lee cast SS press, Lee sizer and pusher. I watched the boolits come out and ONCE scraping started, all came out scraped on the same side. Sized from 312 (as cast) to 308. Residue inside the die? Couldn't see any but possible. Interesting to note, same alloy PCd and run through the same die come out 3085, hitek, 308. Not much but noticeable.

[HI-TEK]

I use a Lee cast SS press, Lee sizer and pusher. I watched the boolits come out and ONCE scraping started, all came out scraped on the same side. Sized from 312 (as cast) to 308. Residue inside the die? Couldn't see any but possible. Interesting to note, same alloy PCd and run through the same die come out 3085, hitek, 308. Not much but noticeable.

Interesting Popper,
My best guess is that Powder Coatings are more "spongy" and have ability to recover after it is sized. In contrast, Hi-Tek, has much less open void, and is mainly solid film, and that would explain the half thou difference between PC and HT after sizing in same die.
With sizing die damage, I have seen magnified Hi-Tek particles that were removed from sizing die, and on one side of particles was Lead, and other side it was coating on same Lead. It suggests that the alloy is being "shaved" in specific spots. This "shaving" could occur with both PC and Hi-Tek coatings.
The only thing that has not been addressed is, that because of the PC being applied much thicker, shaving may tend to shave powder coating, and leave some coating on cast. With Hi-Tek because it is so thin, it may be, that this is why sizing die exposes Lead when coating is shaved/sliced.
I put my theory to following detail, PC may be up to 10 thou thick. Shaving off 1 to 2 thou may not expose metal. With Hi-Tek, most coats are 1.5 to 2 thou thick. If that is being shaved off at 2 thou, that will expose Lead.

[fredj338]

I think it is the lee die finish. I have had mine polished.

[fredj338]

So instead of helping the original poster you decided to turn this into a personal attack, accompanied with lies against "Zero supporting" Hi-Tek and His Drones. Your choice.

Back to the topic:

I have used WW, range scrap,lino,mono,pure... and all kinds of mixes. No matter what my "mystery alloy mix" is, it has some contaminants that prevent proper coating cure unless I clean my bullets by soaking them in HCL overnight.

Here you can see three shiny bullets as cast,the rest have been HCL-cleaned. PC or HT curing is completely different with those shiny bullets,they fail in mysterious ways. Cleaned bullets work great.

If things go wrong it may be a good idea to test-soak some bullets and see if they sizzle and change appearance.



Attachment 229510

I have cast & coated all manner of alloy & never had an issue with coatings sticking, HT or PC. I do NOT water drop though, air cool. So some thought might be as noted, water contamination. I suspect you water is not bottled or filtered.

[Petander]

I have cast & coated all manner of alloy *& never had an issue with coatings sticking, HT or PC. I do NOT water drop though, air cool. So some thought might be as noted, water contamination. I suspect you water is not bottled or filtered.

I do not water drop. And I do not have problems with coating,I used to have until I tried HCL soak.

Acid soak gives me very good bonding compared to "as cast". It removes contaminants and produces a porous surface. Everything bonds better to clean alloy anyway.

I'm posting here simply because I had strange problems in the beginning of my coating career. I had no first hand experience of good coating. Never handled a good coated bullet. I thought I was doing fine. I may not be the only one with contaminated alloy here. And I have a ton of it, it's worth doing things properly.

I'll acid test every single bit of alloy from now on. This is what I got today:

Attachment 229670.

They shoot in a 45-70 close to 2000 fps all day with a clean barrel.

Attachment 229671.


EDIT: Of course I polish my Lee sizing dies. They can be rough,polishing takes a couple of minutes. I polish many other casting/reloading tools as well.

[Bama]

Another thing to consider is the amount of size reduction and the angle of the throat in the sizing die. If a large amount of size reduction is required the leade in angle must be more gentle so that excess material is extruded rather than shaved. This is why dies made with neck sizing bushings must have the entrance ground to a more gentle angle to eliminate scraping.

[Petander]

My XRF came. This is my hard alloy. 50WW,25 Mono,25 pure (22lr scrap).

There is Copper and Niobium,the latter especially reacts with many things when warmed up. I'm glad there's no Zn though. The impurities most probably origin from WW. There is not a crazy amount if tin after all the guesses. I have been told it's tin that keeps my alloy stainless-looking.

My old Saeco tester says BHN is 18, this sort of confirms my tester is in the ballpark.

Attachment 229680

[ioon44]

"I have been told it's tin that keeps my alloy stainless-looking." Yes, tin will make the bullets brighter and fill out better. your alloy with 2.7 % tin should cast fine. I have never ran into alloy with Niobium.

[Petander]

"I have been told it's tin that keeps my alloy stainless-looking." Yes, tin will make the bullets brighter and fill out better. your alloy with 2.7 % tin should cast fine. I have never ran into alloy with Niobium.

Yes this has been very easy to cast since 2004 or so. I did a big WW melt / alloy mix back then.

I just thought there might be even more tin. But this is very good info.

[jmort]

Agree the tin level is fine,but the antimony is higher than I would like. I have seen a few XRF analysis reports and niobium is something I do not recall. I can see no reason to add it, so it may be naturally occuring.

[Elkins45]

Niobium is about $75/lb, so I doubt it’s being intentionally added. Interesting it’s there even in trace quantities.

[popper]

HCl doesn't react with lead or copper so your just cleaning oxides off the surface. Vineagar will react with lead and leaves the dark etched surface that is somewhat soft.

[Petander]

HCl doesn't react with lead or copper so your just cleaning oxides off the surface. Vineagar will react with lead and leaves the dark etched surface that is somewhat soft.

Here is a typical HCL cleaned bullet in the middle. It practically sucks the coating in. The other two reject proper bonding of any coating. I get merely painted bullets. Can those fresh, shiny bullets be so badly oxidized that they won't coat?

Attachment 229698.

HCL reacts with tin,I have no idea what is going on with Niobium but it's not something that we usually have in alloys. Right now tend to think that I found my contaminant. Enter Acid wash,problem solved. The problem is everywhere in my WW alloys. Did it come from the WW clips? No idea.


About vinegar,distilled vinegar is even better. Add hydrogen peroxide and it reacts faster. Here is a bottle cap filled with 50/50 solution, one 9mm bullet dropped in. That's "The Dip". Eats steel, stainless may tolerate it better. May.

Attachment 229700.

Acid test is cheap and easy. XrF was cheap and easy,too. Will do more to avoid guesswork.


To the OP and whoever has strange results with mystery metal. Do the acid test.

[popper]

My problem appears basically to be the Lee sizer. I've polished it before (dremel with buffer cylinder) but under mag. it has bits of something adhering to the inside. Most is actually in the entrance cone, collecting just in front of the sizer portion.
Note to self: use the dremel.
Yes, vinegar & peroxide work great on lead. Even more active if you run some current through it.