some loading controversy

[Chill Wills]

Charlie, I Agree.

A little back story. This issue of case cylinder diameter (being large enough) ; the fired case diameter in part got us going because he said he thought his chamber was too tight and he is having trouble getting a fresh 0.459" cast bullet into fired cases.
Hmmm...
Not resized or necksized and expanded but not going into a fired case.
Maybe - but odd!

So, I offered to take a case home after the match and measure with my ball-anvil mic. Also with my set of pin gauges do a GO/NO GO test on the inside diameter of the fired case.

I found up to a .460" diameter gauge to GO and .461" NO GO
The Starline 45-70 cases mic'd 0.010" + wall thickness and very even and close all the way around. Good cases I think. So... I am not sure what the problem is yet. Also, he is careful and good at this kind of thing so I do not know why he was having trouble getting bullets in fired cases.

More to come...

[Lead pot]

CPA uses a chamber that is not the normal, but close what seems to be standard. I have drawings of it when I ordered my rifle from them. I opted not to use their chamber because I wanted it to be tighter for a PP only chamber.
Their chamber is tighter then what most manufactures use but very close to the Shiloh Chambers except for the throat and transition from the mouth into the throat, it is flatter(not a 45). Their neck diameter is .481 at the case mouth and .345" back it tapers up to .4838" to allow I think for the case thickness taper as it gets thicker towards the base???
This is my thought on his problem. .481" case mouth .020" brass thickness gives the fired case inside diameter .461" not allowing for some spring back as the case cools. If that case is trimmed as fired tight to the chamber end and snug fit in the case before it is fired it is possible that the case neck gets pulled up in the transition and gets swaged down to less then the diameter of the bullet.
I have this problem when my cases start to lengthen and need to be trimmed with the tight chambers I use.
Then there comes the problem with the bullet mould, and I don't know if this is his case.
Aluminum moulds will expand with the temperatures they cast with more then a iron mould. This gets to be a problem if the bullet is shot as cast if the temp of the mould varies. Tight fitting alignment pins holding the mould from not closing completely will vary the diameter of flash between the mould handles keeping the halves from aligning properly changing the diameters when casting.

just a little more loading controversy

[John Boy]

The rifle was not glass bedded so I bedded the tangs and this stopped the vertical. It shoot very well.

CPA also has 'fatter' tang screws which will tighten the stock better to the tang

[EDG]

>>>I do not know why he was having trouble getting bullets in fired cases.<<<

Probably that rock hard Starline brass is springing back. All it needs is annealing.
Starline needs to get its act together and quit shipping all their brass in the work hardened state.

[Chill Wills]

CPA uses a chamber that is not the normal, but close what seems to be standard.
This is my thought on his problem. .481" case mouth .020" brass thickness gives the fired case inside diameter .461" not allowing for some spring back as the case cools. If that case is trimmed as fired tight to the chamber end and snug fit in the case before it is fired it is possible that the case neck gets pulled up in the transition and gets swaged down to less then the diameter of the bullet.
I have this problem when my cases start to lengthen and need to be trimmed with the tight chambers I use.

just a little more loading controversy

Kurt - all the cases are short. It was a fired case I cleaned and pin gauged 0.460" GO / 0.461" NO GO

He uses a 0.459" lube sizer to apply the lube - the bullets, what ever size they come from the mold are not going to be too large - RE: the 0.460 GO gauge. I can check that point again with him but his bullets should not be the cause so far as I know.

[Chill Wills]

>>>I do not know why he was having trouble getting bullets in fired cases.<<<

Probably that rock hard Starline brass is springing back. All it needs is annealing.
Starline needs to get its act together and quit shipping all their brass in the work hardened state.

I hear you! But again, It was a fired case, annealed or not, that I gauged. So its comparative hardness is not at issue as to its fired inside diameter. The fired case is large enough.

You do make a good point about annealing the Starline cases and I will ask him about it - it could have some bearing on the high/low accuracy trouble!

[Lead pot]

It's hard to work things out with out having the problem in your hands. I shouldn't even try to guess what might be going on. Vertical if it is the load can be worked out by making changes or checking case neck variances or seating die adjustments if a GG bullet is used that changes the neck tension. Cases to long will really throw vertical, more so then a grain over or below the accuracy load.

I'm sure you guys will find out what is going on. I have to get out and do some shooting now for a upcoming weekend midrange match with a new lot of powder to make sure nothing has changed

Kurt

[Chill Wills]

Darn right! Get out there and shoot!

Prone or Three Position ?

I wish I had a 3P mid-range match coming up! That is my favorite. No one around these parts wants to shoot them because the offhand stage; scares them off. Real riflery is hard to come by.

OK - O.T. over...

[Lead pot]

It's just a small informal match maybe 15 give or take a few, maybe 5 will shoot a muzzle loader. Position or prone is your choice. I cant shoot prone anymore, or at least get up shooting prone So I shoot sitting and off hand if others are doing it. Just a fun end of the season get together.

Roger.....out

[Don McDowell]

Darn right! Get out there and shoot!



I wish I had a 3P mid-range match coming up! That is my favorite. No one around these parts wants to shoot them because the offhand stage; scares them off. Real riflery is hard to come by.

.

Nope, there's two of us that like that position match.

[country gent]

I always enjoyed and looked forward to the offhand stages also. Matches were won offhand and lost prone LOL. I can no longer safely shoot offhand standing due to mobility and balance issues. So I do it from the waist up sitting on a stool now.

[Chill Wills]

Country Gent - well at least you are getting out there! That is the important part.

OK Don, I guess just you, me and Eron like it. OK, and Jack O will shoot it too. So we got a few of us. So why don't we ever get a match?

[Don McDowell]

Bet we could get Cody to bite on that match as well..When you going to have it?

[Chill Wills]

It's hard to work things out with out having the problem in your hands. I shouldn't even try to guess what might be going on. Kurt

Yes, that is the same problem I am having too. I don't have the rifle nor the rifleman here. It makes it somewhat of a guessing game but as you say, we'll get it worked out. He is one of the many "good guys" we have in this game and I want to get him shooting better.

[montana_charlie]

Kurt - all the cases are short. It was a fired case I cleaned and pin gauged 0.460" GO / 0.461" NO GO.

Had he tried to insert a normally-prepped bullet in that specific case ... before selecting it for you to measure?

I have been firing the same batch of stretched and trimmed cases for so long I am dead certain they are not shrinking or growing.
But, after a trip through the ceramic tumbling a few may exhibit a tiny 'lip' on the inner mouth.

I don't cut this away as that would eventually shorten the case. Instead, I 'iron' it flat with a Lee Factory Crimp Die adapted for use with 2.4-inch brass.

To find these (few) cases needing 'ironing', I slip a .460" expander plug into the mouths of all of the primed cases before adding powder. The expander plug is (essentially) your pin gauge.

If your Bud doesn't have the restriction on all case mouths, he might be seeing what I do ... and needs to give you a case that he can't push a bullet into.

[Chill Wills]

Had he tried to insert a normally-prepped bullet in that specific case ... before selecting it for you to measure?

Yes. No. Well, kinda...

Charlie, we were at a Silhouette match. I was spotting for him. He was having high/lows.
At the end of the match we were talking about all the ways this problem might be solved.
He said, amounst other things, "I can't get my sized lubed bullets inside a fired case; I have to run the case into the expander die first."
He further explained that he thought the chamber was too tight in the CPA rifle and or the case wall thickness on the Starline brass abnormally thick. He was not sure and was speculating.

I asked, do you mind if I take one of the fired cases you shot today home? I have a ball anvil Micrometer to accurately measure case wall thickness and a set of pin gauges to check the inside diameter of the fired case.
He gave me a case to take.

I got home and cleaned his case with my fired cases in the ceramic cleaner and did the above reported measurements.

PS. that misspelled word "amounst" always gives me fits.

Charlie, I am not sure where you are going but you always have an interesting thought.....

Standing by....

[montana_charlie]

Yes. No. Well, kinda...

Charlie, I am not sure where you are going but you always have an interesting thought.....

Standing by....

I'm already where I was headed.

If ALL of his cases give him the problem of not accepting a new bullet in unsized brass, then your measurement only tells you the part of the story that was in your hand. The next step is to know (for sure) the diameter of his bullets.

But, I am assuming that only SOME of them need that trip to the expander, which means he may have given you one that would NOT have exhibited the problem.

As to the question of 'what the problem is' ...
If he gives you a known troublemaker to measure, and the mouth is lightly peened inward ... that can cause it.
And, a number of others have talked about their own experience with the issue.

Then a guy gets to decide what to do about it.

Since his cases are already short, he may as well do a light spin on the inner mouth with his champhering tool.
But, if he decides to use that case stretcher, and create some well-fitted brass, then something similar to my plan will keep long cases long.

[Chill Wills]

Charlie, some good thoughts. Thanks.
His next step is making sure all his cases are long enough and square. He may have completed this by now.

There are a few questions that came out of this discussion that he and I can cover in our next meeting. So far so good.

It is hard to take this much farther until (we) know all cases and bullets are uniform.

When I get time tonight I will reread this whole thread and make notes of items I want to ask him about addressing. The possibility that the hammer is dragging on the wood is high on the list of things to look into. That alone could explain a lot.

[kokomokid]

We got a new lot of powder and my shooting partner started shooting large groups. He tested different loads at home and said the groups just got larger but when we got to a match and the firing pin tip locked up his sharps he found the problem. Seems firing pin strike makes a big difference.

[Chill Wills]

Yes - that is a good point! Sorry, bad pun.

Broken firing pins have been at the root of many "rifles" and "loads" going sour. That is until we learn the pin is damaged or outright broken into two but held captive and the rifle still fires. Had that happen to my CPA this year during the 22 BPCT nationals. If you don't catch it right away it can leave you wondering why you are shooting so poorly and waste an expensive once a year outing.

We checked that on my friends rifle - first thing