some loading controversy

[Chill Wills]

Because it is a little slow right now I thought I would post some controversy. The following is a copy of a letter (email) to a fellow BPCR Silhouette shooter who just got a CPA rifle last summer and is not shooting as well as I know he can. I have spotted two matches for him this month and I think from observing him, he can be a lot better rifleman than his scores reflect. He has a great deal of high/low trouble. In part, his vertical impacts are due to his loads. In addition his Starline cases are different lengths, most of which are short.

Please weigh in....
I hope to draw out a few more people than the regular culprits.

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Hey XXXXX,

I would do the chamber cast again if that is easy and you have time. But....



If not I would use the available time to create as many cases the same length as you can for shooting tests and then of course matches.
Sixty good cases would be fine to start. All at least 2.110" in length if not longer. CPA uses reamers that are full length and there is almost no chance you have a short chamber.

If you have extra time do the following....



If I can find a very long case I will set it aside and you should too to use it for fit and trim. I understand you have the case stretcher tool. Get a long case, 0.035' too long and expand it to cylinder and slowly fit and trim until you have a case that will chamber but not by much! Just keep trimming and feeling the rifle lever as you close the action.

Once the case length is found, do a second case to confirm. Maybe trim that by 0.005" and use that length until something causes you think you have a better measurement. ...like a chamber cast. But the trim and fit will work if you are among the careful types.


Once you have a bunch a long cases with square mouths you can really start the load testing.
We can go into the "get a good working load in one quick range session" on some other email - soon.


Things that work for me; Swiss powder; NO Compression; seat bullet into the rifling medium to kinda hard, pistol primers like Federal match pistol and Hard Bullets made out of Pb, Sn, Sb on the order of 97, 1.5, 1.5 of 96.5 - 1.5 - 2.0



The kind of bullets we are shooting - the long nosed Money type need a harder alloy. 20-1 or 30-1 that some people shoot will shoot well with older style blunt bullets but do not work for the long unsupported noses we are using.



Michael Rix

[Lead pot]

Michael

I have three CPA rifles and out of the three I have had one that would walk or would throw some vertical. ( mine are not the through bolt) The rifle was not glass bedded so I bedded the tangs and this stopped the vertical. It shoot very well.
I have their chamber reamer print but it is a .45-90 And I see your talking maybe .45-70?
Here is a very easy way to make a chamber cast that will tell you what you might want to see. Just melt some candles and use the wax for a cast. It fast and easy to clean up fir you over fill the chamber. It will tell you what you want to find out for length or dimensions. Just lightly coat the chamber with oil. The cast will shrink o the inside of the cast not the outside so it will be good enough.

As far as the MB.....I shoot it with a 1/17 T/L but my barrel is the 1/16 ROT Douglas XX premium

[country gent]

Also check the take down set screw to insure it is tight. Mine has loosened up once and gave elevation problems. ANother is finding the right load for the rifle in question. This can be bullet style, powder type, charge or compression. Primers. I have been using alot of Olde ensford 1 1/2f and 2f with good results lately. Another thing to watch for when spotting for this gentleman is if the elevation issues are from the start of the string or develop as the string is fired. Or as the match goes on. It may be a barrel changing zero as it warms thru the string. Or it may be a recoil issue with a shooter not used to the recoil and a flinch developing as he goes along.

[Chill Wills]

Kurt,

"I have three CPA rifles and out of the three I have had one that would walk or would throw some vertical. ( mine are not the through bolt) The rifle was not glass bedded so I bedded the tangs and this stopped the vertical. It shoot very well." Kurt, Bedding is the first thing I check. It is tight but not glassed bedded. I also checked the lug screw. Fine.


"Here is a very easy way to make a chamber cast that will tell you what you might want to see". Kurt, He has cerosafe and made one and now is talking about doing it again. Fun stuff!

Country Gent, "Another thing to watch for when spotting for this gentleman is if the elevation issues are from the start of the string or develop as the string is fired" - Or it may be a recoil issue with a shooter not used to the recoil and a flinch developing as he goes along. There are high/lows from the start. He owns and shot the Pedersoli much better and did not have this issue. It may be a barrel changing zero as it warms thru the string. Maybe. Too early to know.
-M Rix

[Gunlaker]

Michael, one other thing to check on those CPA's is sufficient clearance in the inletting around the hammer spring. Both of my CPA's had issues there which weakened the firing pin impact. One had it worse than the other, but both had the problem.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Michael.

I wasn't going to comment on the 1/20 and 1/30 lead alloy for the M/B because I always seem to get a lot flagg for doing this. Mostly from people that don't have a clue what a bullet ends up looking like when it clears the muzzle and is still in the air.
With these particular bullets I wanted to compare the M/B with popular alloy some use, so I used straight wheel weights and 1/20 tin/lead from roto metal.
From left to right are some bullets shot in the .45-90 using 82 gr of 2f OE. WW have a good amount of antimony and other unknown stuff in them. The third bullet was not fired for comparison and it is 1.457" long. The two on the left, #1-#2 where shot and they just got setback at most .003".
Now look at #4 bullet that was cast in the same mould using 1/20 lead tin using the same powder load and look at the nose setback. It now resembles a Lyman postell at best. That nose was setback .060" and just think what 1/30 alloy would like and I do have some of those also.
Now if that ogive gets setback straight it would still shoot as good as a postell does but a few things will start to show up when the bare lead from the setback nose starts to stay behind shot after shot fired. Or if the nose gets a slump and the bullet develops a wobble and kicks up a unexplained dirt cloud. I'm sure you get my point.

[Chill Wills]

Kurt,
I am pretty sure, even though you are addressing me by name, you really are posting this for those that might be new to the idea; right?

[Chill Wills]

Michael, one other thing to check on those CPA's is sufficient clearance in the inletting around the hammer spring. Both of my CPA's had issues there which weakened the firing pin impact. One had it worse than the other, but both had the problem.

Chris.

Chris, That is a good point. I have had the same result myself on two CPA and had to go after the wood to correct it. Just a few months ago in Cheyenne at a 22 BPCR match, a new to the game but vet of silhouette who just the day before got a new CPA rifle to shoot the 22 BPCR game could not complete the match with his new rifle. Failure to fire. I ended up loaning mine and we shared.

He got it home and scraped the inletting (wood) out in the tight area and now he has a tackdriver 22rf rifle. Everyone is happy. .... Now!!!! Wasn't then!

I will have my friend look into that! Good call!

[Don McDowell]

Have you watched his grip on the gun? Those CPA's seem to be a bit more sensitive to limpwristing with the gun hand. Also check to be see if he's putting the same pressure on the lever spur. The way they recoil is a bit different than a sharps, and see if he's picking his head up to quick...

[Chill Wills]

Yup - you called it. He was lifting his head trying to watch the steel go down. Darn shame! watching is fun. But we know if we want to hit them all, we have to follow through and keep our eyes in the sights.

Why yes, I did mention to him with a laugh, you do the aiming and I'll do the watching and let you know where the shot goes

But, that did not resolve the vertical

[Don McDowell]

I finally layed my wiping rod beside the spotting board, Eddie said I got mine, I said it's not for you to wipe with, I'm gonna beat you with it if you lift your head before the target goes down. LOL
I wonder if he's getting into some problems with his wiping routine? Was he still using the BACO bore wipes?

[Lead pot]

Kurt,
I am pretty sure, even though you are addressing me by name, you really are posting this for those that might be new to the idea; right?

Yes I am.

[Chill Wills]

Well, I don't know about his BAC Bore Wipes but our friend, who will remain nameless, uses patches popped from his own, homemade patch popper. I think his wiping is working. It looks good and I was blowtubing all day - so I don't think there was a way he could have got behind.

[Don McDowell]

Did he change bullets from his Pedersoli?

[Chill Wills]

Yes. He bought a mold or two and also tried a few designs I cast for him. Bullets might be one of the items on the load development list we cover soon.

[Don McDowell]

I've had two rifles now go to throwing a bunch of vertical. One of them turned out the spring on that holds the site staff in position had weakened letting the sight not come back to position win the same spot, the other the staff had loosened in the drum.. Guess things like that won't happen if you leave em in the safe and don't run a couple thousand rounds thru em every few months..

[Gunlaker]

I finally layed my wiping rod beside the spotting board, Eddie said I got mine, I said it's not for you to wipe with, I'm gonna beat you with it if you lift your head before the target goes down. LOL
I wonder if he's getting into some problems with his wiping routine? Was he still using the BACO bore wipes?

That made me laugh Don. I have been guilty of the same thing. Shooting with a scope is neat because you can see the bullet mark on the steel before it falls so maybe there is less head lifting tendency .

I think that maintaining a consistent hold, trigger pull, and follow through for each and every shot when shooting prone is maybe the most difficult part of this game. Probably more so than wind reading, except maybe when you get past 800.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Seems to me I remember saying that same thing to someone at the Alliance and Quigley shoots LOL.

[Don McDowell]

Chris I know I'm staying in good position when I see the muzzle flash in the rear sight before the recoil moves the sight. Eddie was just to accustom to the CAS thing where they yank the trigger and start moving to the next target. But him and that Freund gun are getting along real well now.

[montana_charlie]

I would use the available time to create as many cases the same length as you can for shooting tests and then of course matches.
Sixty good cases would be fine to start. All at least 2.110" in length if not longer. CPA uses reamers that are full length and there is almost no chance you have a short chamber.

If you have extra time do the following....



If I can find a very long case I will set it aside and you should too to use it for fit and trim. I understand you have the case stretcher tool. Get a long case, too long and expand it to cylinder and slowly fit and trim until you have a case that will chamber but not by much! Just keep trimming and feeling the rifle lever as you close the action.

Once the case length is found, do a second case to confirm. Maybe trim that by 0.005" and use that length until something causes you think you have a better measurement. ...like a chamber cast. But the trim and fit will work if you are among the careful types.


Once you have a bunch a long cases with square mouths you can really start the load testing.
We can go into the "get a good working load in one quick range session" on some other email - soon.
Michael Rix

I would modify what you told him only this much.

If he normally shoots cases that have been full length resized, then his 'test case' should be sized before expanding the mouth to full diameter and probing the chamber.
If he shoots 'fireformed' cases, then he should to that first ... to assure that the case is still 0.035'' too long before the trimming starts.