.410 BRASS loads question and observations

[halvey]

Went out today to test some brass loaded .410's
I used a Chiappa .410/.22 with a 19" barrel. They say its a full choke.

6.2, 6.4 and 6.6 Titegroup
1/2 oz #8 shot
Magtech brass .410
.410 wads
overshot cards I punched myself from a cereal box
Winchester Large pistol primers

I decided to try to load up some .410 shells with the above recipe. I used Titegroup because it's what I loaded to fireform the .303 British cases I have. So, I used the starting data from the .45 Colt and Titegroup. I figured 1/2 oz shot is 220 gr bullets and they listed a range of 6.2-7.2.

I loaded up two ways:
1) powder, overshot card, 1/2 oz #8, another overshot card
2) powder, regular plastic .410 wad, 1/2 oz #8, overshot card

I compressed everything so there was 1/2" of empty case left.

I definitely got better patterns using the plastic wads.

The tightest pattern came from somewhat of a mistake I made:
powder, overshot card, plastic wad, 1/2oz shot, overshot card
So I put an extra overshot card in there.
Nice pattern with most of the shot in an 18" circle at 20 yards.

I'm wondering if I got a better pattern because of the compression of the powder? Or is it because the shot was (somewhat) higher in the case?

I'm thinking of trying to replicate the results, but perhaps I need to adjust here.
Should I use those felt wads to raise the shot up? Or get a bulkier powder? I'm thinking NOT compressing the shot all the way down won't work? It's tight in the case, so I know the wad won't move. But could there be pressure issues as there's a lot of space between the powder and wad?

Any help is appreciated!

[GhostHawk]

I don't think there should ever be a space between powder and the wad.

I have loaded both .410 and 20 ga brass hulls. On the 20 I have fiber cushion wads that go over the nitro card or overpowder wad.

In all after I have powder in I insert the first wad then tamp it into position. With the 20 ga I use my 12 ga lyman press that has a spring to measure compression. With the .410 I just use a dowel and LEAN on it. Each wad as it goes in gets pressed firmly into place. I don't seat shot, but do seat the overshot card onto the shot.

After doing a lot of reading on brass hulls and smokeless powder it appeared that the biggest problem most had was getting enough pressure for complete burn. Seating wads tight will help with that.

I need to pattern my 20 gauge loads but my .410 l.oads seemed to work fine. But I was loading buckshot or .357 200 grain boolits. So I did not expect tight patterns.

[Cowboy_Dan]

The over powder wad is sealing the gasses behind the wad column. The inside diameter of brass hulls is larger than plastic ones and much of the pressure leaks around the wad when you use standard ones for plastic hulls.

[halvey]

I went out yesterday afternoon and tried the loads again.

I tried 6.2, 6.4, 6.6, 6.8 and 7.0 of Titegroup.
I loaded them like my first "mistake" load:
powder, overshot card, plastic hull, 1/2oz shot, overshot card

I loaded the plastic hull near the top of the brass so there was space between the powder/overshot card and hull.

All loads were nice and tight in an 18" pattern. I'm thinking like Cowboy Dan said, because the powder was compressed and "sealed" by the overshot, I got a better seal, thus better patterns?

The over powder wad is sealing the gasses behind the wad column. The inside diameter of brass hulls is larger than plastic ones and much of the pressure leaks around the wad when you use standard ones for plastic hulls.

The extra space in the case still concerns me a bit. I read some guys using various homemade fillers (cream of wheat, tissue, cotton) or I suppose I could get the felt wad fillers?

What do you guys think? Or should I leave as is?

They are for informal plinking of cans, clays etc. I'd stick with factory stuff for hunting.

[Tackleberry41]

Does seem an odd thing, something like titegroup in a pistol pretty much ALWAYS has space between the powder and bullet, yet is said to be a huge no no in shotshells.

I have never tried or seen load data for fast powders in a 410, they generally require something much slower. Dont guess you have any velocity data to give an idea how its performing? Would be nice to be able to use other powders in a 410.

[too many things]

I just have to wonder how many that were here are not now from the things they do?
I have never seen so many try to do so many things
where did anyone see titegroup for a 410 load ?
just have to shake the water off

[victorfox]

titegroup seems to be a quite fast powder, and I've been loading with a single base powder about w231 burn rate for 3/8oz of shot, not too far from 1/2, but never had the guts to go further (6 grains under 3/8oz). Also tried another powder, almost like unique in burn rate, 6 gr under 1/2oz of shot, definitely weak load, but never was brave enough to put more powder

[220]

Better patterns are due to the shot cup protecting shot from damage.
Nice round shot flies straight, shot not protected by a plastic shot cup gets damaged with flat spots etc as it rubs against the bore while it travels down the barrel. Once it leaves the barrel the damage results in it not flying straight and patterns open.

Well known and the reason why the use of felt wad loads are recommended for tightly choked guns if you want to open up patterns.

[jdfoxinc]

Plus the cup keeps the shot colum together past the muzzle.

[Wolfer]

I load mine in 444 brass as follows. Powder (13 gr of 2400) cereal box wad tamped lightly, plastic shot cup tamped lightly, fill the case with shot just below the rim, seat another cereal box wad and tamp lightly, a drop of Elmers glue on top to seal and hold it all in place.

I hunt with these, they pattern very well.

When loading shotgun shells on a press, if you have space in the case it's more difficult to get a good crimp. Instead of forming the crimp it will just push down into the case and shot will start leaking out. For this reason when loading combination's that didn't fill the case you had to use a filler wad of some kind.

For what we're doing I can't see space between the powder and shot column being bad. I would prefer that the cereal box wad be at the bottom of the plastic wad as opposed to on top of the powder. This scenero could ring a chamber in a rifle.

The plastic wad will not seal the gas until it enters the barrel. Hence the need for a wad behind it in the case.

[35 Whelen]

A couple of things I've found that really helps .410 patterns: First get rid of the full choke. A .410 is a 25, maybe 30 yard shotgun for the most part and benefits not in the least from a full choke. Second, if your shotgun doesn't already have it, get the forcing cone lengthened. This really aids in keeping the shot from being damaged.
I have a little Richland Arms SxS .410 that came with long forcing cones. I had Michael Orlen thread it for screw in chokes, which removed the full chokes, and use skeet/IC for skeet shooting and IC/Mod for dove and quail. It's a deadly little rig and anything within 30 yds. doesn't stand a chance.
One other thing to watch is pressures. I always got my loads out of the Lyman shotshell manual, selecting the lower pressure loads for the shot weight I desired, and match the components to a "T". Doing so and using nothing but high antimony shot made for really consistent loads.

35W

[BrassMagnet]

I posted this thread on forming and loading 3" all brass .410 shot shells:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ot!&highlight=

[Littlewolf]

i remember getting those pics, an update in the recipe is buffer wad made from 1/2" fiber accustic celing tiles with a 7/16" hollow plug cutter in a drill press over 18gr red dot. otherwise the same song n dance.

[wnc435]

With all my shotgun loads 410-10ga I have been using foam backer rod (found at most hardware stores) as my filler to avoid any voids. On my brass shells I put my over shot card and use a Mec steel crimp die to just crimp the top edge. Puts a very nice radius so they load very nice.

[turtlezx]

18 grs of reddot???????????? wow little wolf

[303Guy]

Is no one using Lil'Gun in the 410? It was made for it (although it really shines in the hornet).

I'll be loading for my 410 in the near future and my powders are Lil'Gun and H4227. I do have on hand Clays too. My intention is to make brass cases for it. I plan on playing with slugs primarily but shot is on the menu too. Living in a 'populated' rural area, shot for pests might be the best option. Suppressed of course.