444 Marlin in the BFR 10" barrel.

[Ramjet-SS]

I have over 200 deer kills so far in life so I am not idiot when comes to choosing the correct gun and making the shots to take animals. The difference between myself and you 44man is I do not or try and come across as total know it all. Unfortunately YOU do. Stop talking down to folks and if you want be helpful learn to write in manner that gets the point across without being such a "know it all" . I hope I got my point across.

For or the others I posted on this thread the load and gun are for fun if I do decide to shoot a deer it will perform just fine.

Thanks for for the responses.

[Hickory]

Stop talking down to folks and if you want be helpful learn to write in manner that gets the point across without being such a "know it all" . I hope I got my point across.

You know you are right, I did come across as a know it all, for which I'm sorry I did.
I will in the future try to convey my thoughts in a way that won't be misconstrue.
Again I apologize.

[Ramjet-SS]

Hickory it happens it's very obvious the net does not allow us to communicate as though we are sitting at a table in deer camp or at the local diner. I cannot read intent in a internet post. I can interoperate it and I guess that's where we get into the quagmire. We all share an interest that is guns shooting and hunting. What we do is mess around with boolits although I respect each persons individual experience and thier results they may not be for me or anyone else because every situation is different and every animal is a challenge on itself. I like guys sharing thier experience but we need to try and be respectful and not pushy or disrespectful to those who might have another opinion or contrary experience.

My my post frankly was directed at 44 Man he is a total jerk when he posts with his "know it all" attitude and condicending tone in his writing. I am tired of it. Why? Do we even know if all his expereince is even first hand or even the truth? The way he writes and acts I find it hard to believe anything he writes........period end of story.

[Lloyd Smale]

44mans experiences is real. He has taken his share of deer with handguns. He is not spouting bs. Although we don't agree on every aspect of hand loading we do agree on most.

Hickory it happens it's very obvious the net does not allow us to communicate as though we are sitting at a table in deer camp or at the local diner. I cannot read intent in a internet post. I can interoperate it and I guess that's where we get into the quagmire. We all share an interest that is guns shooting and hunting. What we do is mess around with boolits although I respect each persons individual experience and thier results they may not be for me or anyone else because every situation is different and every animal is a challenge on itself. I like guys sharing thier experience but we need to try and be respectful and not pushy or disrespectful to those who might have another opinion or contrary experience.

My my post frankly was directed at 44 Man he is a total jerk when he posts with his "know it all" attitude and condicending tone in his writing. I am tired of it. Why? Do we even know if all his expereince is even first hand or even the truth? The way he writes and acts I find it hard to believe anything he writes........period end of story.

[Lloyd Smale]

well in the real world its less powerful then a 3030 and not to many of us would grab a 3030 if we were hunting brown bear, moose or even elk. I'm sure they been killed very dead by 3030s at some point in time but its far from ideal. Like I said you stick your nose up in the air at someone shooting a bigger handgun then 44 but truth in fact is even a 500 or 475 has less power then a 4570 or 444 out of a rilfe does. If a 44 mag is the limit as to what you can afford or are capable of handling so be it but don't think everyone that has a 454, 475, or 500 in there holster is a chest beating ape. I think just the opposite is what you will find. Those calibers take ALOT of shooting to master and a lot of coin to buy and for those reasons you find them for the most part in holsters of very serious handgun hunters. Don't think for a second I'm knocking your 44. As a matter of fact I carry a 44 myself ALOT and have killed more game with 44mags then all my other handguns combined. But my big bores are hardly biggest and baddest in the field. They pail to a 270 or 06 and most avid hunter going for elk or larger animals want more power then those two rounds.

It just seems that a lot of people want the Biggest & Baddest for shooting deer.
It would be my guess that if the 20 mm were made legal for the private citizen to own, a vast majority would not only want one, but want one to shoot deer with.
My portable cannon ( 44 magnum ) is more then enough for any game animal in North America.

[Ramjet-SS]

44mans experiences is real. He has taken his share of deer with handguns. He is not spouting bs. Although we don't agree on every aspect of hand loading we do agree on most.

He may but it gets lost in his delivery. I know a guy running for President that has the same problem.

[Ramjet-SS]

Veral wrote a very interesting book about hunting with and design of cast bullets. John Linebaugh quoted and subscribed to many of Verals writings and phylosiphies. In my opinion they both had very valid points. Tissue Displacement and disruption.

[45 Dragoon]

Hmmmm . . . .
I seem to be able to understand him quite well (the guy running for president). The problem could be the ears listening . . . . . ?
"She" wants to take away all your talking points on this subject.

Mike

[Lloyd Smale]

verals theroys are solid. Only problem is hes allways a salesman and he badmouths anything but his own designs and ideas. Hes kind of a chest thumper and John Linebaugh is just totally opposite of that. Salt of the earth guy.

Veral wrote a very interesting book about hunting with and design of cast bullets. John Linebaugh quoted and subscribed to many of Verals writings and phylosiphies. In my opinion they both had very valid points. Tissue Displacement and disruption.

[44man]

I have explained too many times I still learn myself. I don't understand where some come from.
I am a grouch at times but I don't see where I was here. I explained that I don't know the .444. I do know what other calibers at too fast and hard do. I also know what soft and explosive does.
Maybe I am wrong passing on things and should let you alone for 60 years to discover things. I must be wrong telling boolit construction is what to look for to match the gun you shoot.
If you buy jacketed, do you use one bullet for deer to elephant? Or do you choose wisely? 10 yards to 600, do you use the same bullet?
I will start this season with the .475 BFR, 420 gr 22 BHN boolit. WHY? Because it is the proper velocity and drops almost every deer in it's tracks with massive internal damage and no meat loss.
Then I will go the the .44 and even a BP single shot pistol with a RB. Maybe my Ruger Old Army next.
I can tell you what my boolit does at 10 yards to 50 with the .44 and also what it does at 100+ and there IS a difference. If all my shots were over 100, I would change my boolit but that is far beyond some. You need to understand remaining velocity at range means a different boolit.
If I make my boolit work at 100+, it will suck at 20 yards. But I leave you to stacks of wet paper and a few jugs of water.
Do I get it wrong? Sure. Look at this with a 440 gr boolit, half the nose cast softer, 1350 fps. Deer was moving, I led her but she stopped at hammer fall and I hit the lead point. I ruined the shoulder on entrance and also the neck on exit. Boolit is still going.Attachment 178949 I wish I was perfect.
You never hurt my feelings so don't worry. You are a good bunch after all. But don't take me wrong. I want to help more then anything.

[44man]

verals theroys are solid. Only problem is hes allways a salesman and he badmouths anything but his own designs and ideas. Hes kind of a chest thumper and John Linebaugh is just totally opposite of that. Salt of the earth guy.

You know that is true but Veral has a lot of knowledge.
But Linebaugh is more for penetration with his seminars. OK for Bear or Bison to elephant but no indications for us deer hunters. Yes I love penetration most of all but at what point is energy placed? You need to do a huge amount of internal damage and still penetrate with a small hole.
I do not like to see the other side of an animal blown up. Or the entrance.
My .475 will do 37" in wet phone books but it is where energy is before exit.Attachment 178950 heart shot with no meat loss. Exit hole was boolit size.
Now how about water jugs? Set up 17 and blew 4 sky high, split the fifth and went through all 17. See where energy was. 22 bhn at 1329 fps. Attachment 178951 First four were blown many yards to be picked up and set back. Picture an animal at the first jugs.

[45 Dragoon]

Lloyd, I'll take a confident "chest thumper" over a lying politician any day! Frankly, I've had enough of them (lying politicians) on both sides.(I'm afraid that while waiting for the "perfect candidate " to show up, we're handing our country to the socialists a platter!!)

44man, very informative and excellent visual!! Thank you.

Mike

[44man]

Lloyd has experience far beyond what I can hunt here. We work for you. The need to shorten the learning curve is this site.

[Ramjet-SS]

Yea Veral is as you describe but I find those in the thier respective fields that are good at what they do can be that way. After all one needs to believe in thier product to neth degree or they may not be able to get others to feel the same. I have always had excellent performance from Verals designs. Took two bull elk 50 yards shots with S&W Hunter model 44 with a 300 grain WFN both went about 75 yards down the ridge before going down. Too be expected they big tough animals. Both cases the broadside shots resulted in the bullet under the hide on the off side.

Now below to show what Lloyd and I think 44 man were getting at; two of the same bullets. They were cast from the same mould and batch of alloy. The one that is obviously deformed was from the 444 at 1800 FPS at the muzzle. The one that looks like you could shoot it again is from my 44 Ruger Back Packer snubby 800 FPS at the muzzle. The distance they were shot into the wet news print was 20 yards. The 800 FPS traveled through 28" of wet news print and had the nose sticking out the back of the 2"x10" frame the news print was sitting in. The 444 traveled 20" and really disrupted the news print. Both traveled straight

[44man]

You are a good man but let me ask. Why not another hole?

[Ramjet-SS]

Not sure what you are asking?

[fiberoptik]

Ruined the 2nd best piece of meat on that poor bambi.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive looked at a lot of shot deer and heres my take on it. ANY flat nosed cast bullet at 900 fps or more does enough damage to quickly kill a deer. To me even a conversation about what flat nosed cast bullet design is best for deer is a waste of time. ANY of them do just fine. Its not till you get up into 500 lb plus animals that some bullets might do better then others. It just doesn't take much to kill a whitetail. In all reality there just a small step up from antelope or even coyotes for that matter. Bullet placement is whats the key to quick kills with a handgun. Theres much less room for slight errors compared to a high powered rifle. Most handgun hunters would be much smarter to spend the time they spend doing penetration tests and expansion tests and even finding the smallest group and instead going out and practicing in field conditions. because shooting skill is whats going to bring home the backstraps. A guy with a 357 that can put all of his shots into a 3 inch circle at hunting ranges is going to be more deadly then the guy with a 500 linebaugh who can only put them in an 8 inch circle.

You know that is true but Veral has a lot of knowledge.
But Linebaugh is more for penetration with his seminars. OK for Bear or Bison to elephant but no indications for us deer hunters. Yes I love penetration most of all but at what point is energy placed? You need to do a huge amount of internal damage and still penetrate with a small hole.
I do not like to see the other side of an animal blown up. Or the entrance.
My .475 will do 37" in wet phone books but it is where energy is before exit.Attachment 178950 heart shot with no meat loss. Exit hole was boolit size.
Now how about water jugs? Set up 17 and blew 4 sky high, split the fifth and went through all 17. See where energy was. 22 bhn at 1329 fps. Attachment 178951 First four were blown many yards to be picked up and set back. Picture an animal at the first jugs.

[Ramjet-SS]

I agree. You are however missing my point. I have this beast for fun. I have many many much better handguns for hunting. This one is for fun lots of noise and power. Yes I can hit the target off hand and from a rest it really accurate. Funny BFR did this one right they run a 1:16 twist so yes I could calm it down and get accuracy from it. But it is beast to lug around in the woods for so little power.

[44man]

Not sure what you are asking?

Only hunting, I have found the best is two holes. I made mistakes at the start using the very accurate 240 XTP and recovered all 3 bullets from 3 deer. I used my IHMSA load of 24 gr of 296. I seen the deer go down over 60 yards each but I back track every deer and I found no blood at all on the trail. In my usual thick spots I might have lost all 3. I figure the 240 XTP would be ideal in the .44 special but for the mag, the 300 gr is better.
So at the velocities you shoot, What would work best? Maybe you get just right, I don't know so I have to depend on you for what happens.
The thing I get at is a deer's lungs are mostly AIR, not wet pack or jello or water jugs. Meat and bone changes it all. I have spent years trying to kill deer very fast and get a boolit to work if shoulder shot and lung shot- both. It is a challenge. How to get the perfect boolit? Can we even do it?
My gripe is not any of you, it is the darn animal that never falls for the tests we do. How do we put them together?
I was there before I could hunt deer with revolvers. Chucks, etc. Then water jugs and catching mushroomed boolits. WOW, what would that do to deer? Could be dead wrong. It is said deer are easy to kill but you must have them in hand to eat and more are lost then I can count. I found a dozen on one property alone. I hunt morals in the spring and find many rotten deer. Sometimes 10 in a 50 yard radius.
I have lost deer with wrong and nothing is worse. I know the deer died. I hate waste over anything.