.22 rimfire alternative

[w30wcf]

One of your #1's or #2's would, I think, be plenty stiff to seat the bullet.

Here I am using a live #2 power load to seat and then shoot a 40 gr. bullet from my rifle.


w30wcf

[NavyVet1959]

Well, the experiments that I did today were with a Ruger 10/22.

It was quite a bit more difficult to insert the 55 gr bullet into the chamber of the 10/22 than it was in the Mini-14 chamber adapter. I tried using one of the power loads to seat the bullet, but I had to drop the bolt on it a few times and by the time I got through, when I pulled the trigger, it would not fire. When I removed the power load and rotated it a bit and tried again, it did fire.

The 55 gr bullet with the #1 load worked.

The 55 gr bullet with the #2 load resulted in a case head separation and quite a bit of fire coming out the ejection port.

I figured that I just was seating the bullet too deeply, so I decided to muzzle load the bullet instead. Pushed the bullet about halfway down the barrel and a #2 load would not push the bullet back out the barrel. Didn't get a case head separation though. The brass ejected quite a way. Tried a #1 load to clear the barrel, but no luck. Ended up having to hammer the bullet all the way to the chamber since due to the design of the chamber on the 10/22, there is not a way to hammer it from the chamber to the end of the barrel.

It's possible that I might just need to resize the bullet to the next smaller size to get it to work in the 10/22.

All in all though, I think a break action or bolt action (where the bolt can be easily removed) would be better for this.

[w30wcf]

NavyVet1959,
Thank you for the range report. "The 55 gr bullet with the #2 load resulted in a case head separation and quite a bit of fire coming out the ejection port."

Definitely some high pressure there! Since the #2 with a 40 gr bullet is pretty much maximum, as you found, it is too, too much for your heavier 55 gr. bullet.

If you made the bullets from a 50/1 lead tin or softer mix it would be easier to push into position, but accuracy with the 55 gr. bullet will likely be somewhat dismal due to the twist rate which is suited to the lighter 40 gr. bullets.

w30wcf

[NavyVet1959]

If you made the bullets from a 50/1 lead tin or softer mix it would be easier to push into position, but accuracy with the 55 gr. bullet will likely be somewhat dismal due to the twist rate which is suited to the lighter 40 gr. bullets.

These bullets are cast from 50:50, powdercoated, tumbled in electrician cable lube, and resized.

It's possible that I would get different results if I could seat the bullets deeper in the 10/22, but it's just difficult to do given the small opening (regardless of whether you come in from the ejection port or underneath via the mag well).

Unfortunately, I do not have a break action or bolt action to experiment with.

[w30wcf]

"It's possible that I would get different results if I could seat the bullets deeper in the 10/22..."
Yes, if the 55 gr. bullet could be seated further ahead from the power load, in effect, to increase cartridge capacity, the No.2 load could be used successfully without incident. The question is though, how much further into the barrel and how to put it there?

Ideally though, a 37-40 gr. cast bullet will work much better since it is the proper weight and may just chamber without too much effort since its engagement length is shorter.

The NOE 37 gr mold would be pretty ideal for your application.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product...roducts_id=413

50/1 alloy would be a bit softer than 50/50 (assuming lead / ww) and much softer than if the mix were of lino/lead. My 50/1 has a bhn of 5.5, or only about 1 point above pure lead. I made it with known sources of lead and tin.

I am sending you a PM

w30wcf

50/1 bullets are pretty soft (5.2 bhn), only 1 point above pure lead. I used known pure lead and known pure tin

[Chev. William]

IF, and I do mean IF, You have a series of Sizing Dies to use, you might consider the 35 Grain JHP .257" Diameter bullets.
I guess it would take time to get them down to .224" in .005" steps.
Alternatively the Lighter weight .223" bullets might work if sized down to match the bore of your rifle (i believe it may be .219", you might need to check that).

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Multigunner]

I tried the blanks I got at a yard sale in my Ruger single six .22 magnum and my High Standard Sentinel revolvers and they worked fine, not vey loud really.
Neither of these well worn revolvers has tight heaspace, but I didn't notice any protusion of the case head past the rear face of the cylinders.

I'll try firing a few .22 pellets later if I can find my stash of these. I haven't obtained a new exhaust valve for my 78g yet so I've only been using my .177 pellet guns lately.

[jmorris]

The 55 gr bullet with the #2 load resulted in a case head separation and quite a bit of fire coming out the ejection port.

The 10/22 will spit out its extractor if you keep doing that.

Might order another one and extra spring too as it generally takes off with it.

[Chev. William]

I tried the blanks I got at a yard sale in my Ruger single six .22 magnum and my High Standard Sentinel revolvers and they worked fine, not vey loud really.
Neither of these well worn revolvers has tight heaspace, but I didn't notice any protusion of the case head past the rear face of the cylinders.

I'll try firing a few .22 pellets later if I can find my stash of these. I haven't obtained a new exhaust valve for my 78g yet so I've only been using my .177 pellet guns lately.

What are the "Blanks" you bought at a Yard sale??
Any marking on the container(s) or on the Blanks themselves?
Any Grade PTL will sound 'weak' if it is Discharged with out any 'projectile' or restriction to build pressure against.
A 'Starting Pistol' blank, on the other hand, should make 'Noise' without a restriction.
Please Enlighten us.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[NavyVet1959]

The 10/22 will spit out its extractor if you keep doing that.

Might order another one and extra spring too as it generally takes off with it.

I found someone on TexasGunTrader.com who had an old Westpoint Cotter & Company Model 40 single-shot .22LR for sale. Looking it up on the web seems to indicate that it was made my Marlin. Using the Marlin numbering scheme, it appears that it was made in 1969.

I met him today and verified that it would fire by using one of the power loads while pointing it at the ground. There was so much traffic noise that no one even noticed it.

The rifle is a little on the "rough side". It looks like it was either a "truck gun" or had been sitting up in a closet or attic and neglected for quite a few years. Looks like he might had taken a bit of mineral spirits and a piece of steel wool to remove some rust on the exterior of the barrel, but the bore looked good. The wood looks more of a black color, so I'm thinking that it was either coated in black grease in the back of a truck or someone along the way thought that using some black paint to stain the wood would be a good option. It definitely does not look like the brown color that I see in other photos of this gun on the web.

For example, this image (that I captured off the web from someone trying to sell one):



But, when I take some mineral spirits and steel wool to the wood, it looks like there might be a nice grain hiding under there waiting for a little TLC.

Not that it really matters... This is just so I can do some testing and not risk any of my more expensive firearms.

Also, the bolt is easily removable, so it makes it easier to run a rod up there to seat one of the AR bullets during testing. Ideally, I should make the chamber a bit deeper so that I do not have to hammer the bullet into the rifling.

So, I got home and tested it. Had to hammer the bullet into the rifling a bit for both tests. The test with the #1 (gray) power load worked acceptably. The brass ejected without a problem. The test with the #2 (brown) power load would not eject. The extractor popped off the rim of the brass and I had to run a brass rod down the barrel to get the cartridge to eject. Both rounds are pretty quiet in my garage without hearing protection.

[Chev. William]

Is there any difference in The Length of the two fired PTLs?

i am wondering if the #2 is longer as fired than the Previous use Cases (.22 RF of whatever). This MIGHT be it sticking due to Crud or Corroded Chamber giving teh fired case something to 'lock onto'.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[NavyVet1959]

Well, I finished the quick "refinish" -- basically just scrubbing it down successively in mineral spirits, turpentine, and acetone and then putting a coat of Danish Oil and Minwax on it. It looks a lot better than it did. Not anywhere close to a "great" refinish job, but it at least looks good enough that I would not be embarrassed if someone saw me shooting it.



Previously, the entire gun was about the color of the trigger guard -- in other words, it looked like axle grease.

[NavyVet1959]

Is there any difference in The Length of the two fired PTLs?

i am wondering if the #2 is longer as fired than the Previous use Cases (.22 RF of whatever). This MIGHT be it sticking due to Crud or Corroded Chamber giving teh fired case something to 'lock onto'.

Nope, they look to be exactly the same length. I'm thinking that the #2 loads are just generating more pressure and they are forming themselves to the chamber quite well. With both loads, the bullet is being seated just forward of the crimp nose of the power load. I'm having to use a rod and a small hammer to tap the bullet that far into the chamber. Maybe a 0.224" resizing die would allow the bullet to drop further. If I had a .22 chamber reamer, I would try making the chamber a bit deeper.

[Multigunner]

The blanks I found at a yard sale come in a grey box marked on the front "12CW 100 grey power level" with a circular chart showing the various power levels and one side is marked Brass while the other is marked Nickel.. Theres a pointer pointing to the number 1 on the chart on the brass side.
The end flap is marked 12CW 100 grey power level Ramset Piston Tool Powder Charge.

The box looks pretty old but there's no date on it.

The case head is coated with grey paint. The headstamp looks like a stylized cursive W.
The blank case is crimped and about as long altogether as a .22 short cartridge.
The case is necked down quite a bit 1/3rd the way up to the crimp.

I'll try reaming out the chamber of the old blank revolver I found. The length of the blank is probably why it doesn't fit.
The blank revolver seems to be one of those intended for launching the soft sock puppet like birds used to train bird dogs to retrieve fallen birds in the field. The bore is not blocked in any way.
The cylinder looks to be of cast zinc or some similar very grainy pot metal. A blank with any higher power than the number 1 would probably crack this cylinder.

Still haven't found my .22 pellet stash. I'll let you guys know if I try firing a pellet with these blanks in the High standard. The Ruger is a stronger gun but its a .22 Magnum so the blank case is a loose fit and would likely cause some gas escape at the breech.
When fired the necked portion does not expand and the crimp while opened evenly isn't ironed out much.

[NavyVet1959]

The blanks I found at a yard sale come in a grey box marked on the front "12CW 100 grey power level" with a circular chart showing the various power levels and one side is marked Brass while the other is marked Nickel.. Theres a pointer pointing to the number 1 on the chart on the brass side.
The end flap is marked 12CW 100 grey power level Ramset Piston Tool Powder Charge.

The box looks pretty old but there's no date on it.

The case head is coated with grey paint. The headstamp looks like a stylized cursive W.
The blank case is crimped and about as long altogether as a .22 short cartridge.
The case is necked down quite a bit 1/3rd the way up to the crimp.

I'll try reaming out the chamber of the old blank revolver I found. The length of the blank is probably why it doesn't fit.
The blank revolver seems to be one of those intended for launching the soft sock puppet like birds used to train bird dogs to retrieve fallen birds in the field. The bore is not blocked in any way.
The cylinder looks to be of cast zinc or some similar very grainy pot metal. A blank with any higher power than the number 1 would probably crack this cylinder.

Still haven't found my .22 pellet stash. I'll let you guys know if I try firing a pellet with these blanks in the High standard. The Ruger is a stronger gun but its a .22 Magnum so the blank case is a loose fit and would likely cause some gas escape at the breech.
When fired the necked portion does not expand and the crimp while opened evenly isn't ironed out much.

You have a #1 brass load, so it's the lowest power of the power loads. It should be about .22LR in power. If the cylinder is zinc, I don't think I would chance putting a bullet in the chamber with the power load.

Using the #2 loads definitely expands the crimp a lot more. That's probably why it is sticking in the chamber of the single shot rifle that I tested with yesterday.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

So, I got home and tested it. Had to hammer the bullet into the rifling a bit for both tests. The test with the #1 (gray) power load worked acceptably. The brass ejected without a problem. The test with the #2 (brown) power load would not eject. The extractor popped off the rim of the brass and I had to run a brass rod down the barrel to get the cartridge to eject. Both rounds are pretty quiet in my garage without hearing protection.

This sounds like just the sort of rifle you needed, and much better than letting everything you do work on the extractor of a fairly expensive semiauto. The brown blanks are obviously too much, as it is unlikely they make the brass any weaker than in firearms rounds.

It would probably be possible to make up a sort of dummy blank on a metal strip or tape, to use the bolt to force home the bullet exactly the same distance each time.

[Chev. William]

For "Pushing" bullets in to a repeatable depth, consider trimming a 'snap cap' length to what you Need and using it to Push the bullet in using the Rifle bolt.

If that is not robust enough, you could make up a Steel or Brass duplicate to use in place of your Blanks as a Push Tool.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Multigunner]

"If that is not robust enough, you could make up a Steel or Brass duplicate to use in place of your Blanks as a Push Tool."
A lot of the old single shot target rifles worked much the same way. Some inserted the bullet into the rifling from the breech with a wooden probe while others loaded the bullet from the muzzle using a false muzzle and lever action ramrod , both using a powder charge housed in a non bulleted cartridge case with only a card wad in the case mouth.

Those that loaded the bullet from the muzzle did so to prevent the formation of a fin at the base at each indented groove in the bullet.

If I can legally make a cane gun by mounting the .177 barrel in an adapter that chokes down just ahead of the chamber so that the barrel is not capable of chambering a .17 cartridge either factory or wild cat it would in effect be a muzzle loader that can't chamber fixed ammunition. Much like the Mexican .177/.22 blank small game rifles.
I really can't see any practical use for such a small caliber cane gun. it certainly wouldn't stop a vicious dog though it would kill a snake easily enough at point blank range. Like a switchblade in some states it might be legal to own but still be illegal to carry.
I really don't know the ins and outs of the legality. if anyone does I'd appreciate some input.

[NavyVet1959]

For "Pushing" bullets in to a repeatable depth, consider trimming a 'snap cap' length to what you Need and using it to Push the bullet in using the Rifle bolt.

If that is not robust enough, you could make up a Steel or Brass duplicate to use in place of your Blanks as a Push Tool.

I tried pushing the bullets with one of the .22 power loads and even with more force than I really wanted to put on the bolt, it wouldn't seat deep enough for the bolt to close. The 55gr Lee Bator bullets that I'm using are cast from either straight wheelweight or at 50:50 mix of WW and pure lead and are water dropped. They are powdercoated and sized to 0.225". Maybe a softer alloy would allow me to seat them with just the force of my hand on the bolt.

From what I understand though, the new Lee C225-55-RF has a longer nose on it, so it's possible that it might seat deeper and allow the power load to push the bullet in without needing any force.

I think I'll try casting some of my Lee .225 Bator bullets tonight with pure lead and see if it will seat.

I was kind of wanting to be able to use my existing stock of powdercoated harder bullets though since they could handle more velocity if needed.

Another option might be to get a 0.225" reamer and extend the chamber a bit. Maybe something like one of these:

http://www.victornet.com/subdepartme...imal/1784.html

[NavyVet1959]

If I can legally make a cane gun by mounting the .177 barrel in an adapter that chokes down just ahead of the chamber so that the barrel is not capable of chambering a .17 cartridge either factory or wild cat it would in effect be a muzzle loader that can't chamber fixed ammunition. Much like the Mexican .177/.22 blank small game rifles.
I really can't see any practical use for such a small caliber cane gun. it certainly wouldn't stop a vicious dog though it would kill a snake easily enough at point blank range. Like a switchblade in some states it might be legal to own but still be illegal to carry.
I really don't know the ins and outs of the legality. if anyone does I'd appreciate some input.

If I was wanting to make a "cane gun" for supposed defense against dogs, I would want it to be heavy enough that it could be used as a *club* after that first shot. Maybe something like a baseball bat, drilled out, and a barrel epoxied into the center of it?