.22 rimfire alternative

[NavyVet1959]

Well, the 3500 "brown" load power loads came in today, so I had to a bit of evaluation tonight.

Since I had an NAA .22LR/.22mag revolver that I had bought my wife probably 25-30 years ago and it rarely gets carried anymore, I decided to use it as my first attempt. The C225-55-RF bullet would slide into the .22LR cylinder, but only go as far as the base of the bullet being flush with the base of the cylinder. To seat it deeper, I will need to use mechanical means to push it a bit deeper. So, I decided to just try firing one of the blank rounds in the gun. I loaded a single round into the cylinder and then installed the cylinder in the gun. Installing the cylinder back into the gun seems slightly more difficult and then when I tried to rotate the cylinder, it was somewhat tight during the rotation. I removed the cylinder and I could see where the base of the cartridge was scraping the frame of the gun. So, I put the bullet back in the cylinder and examined it sitting in the cylinder. It seems that it sits slightly higher than a normal .22LR cartridge, so I figured that it is either not seating all the way in the chamber or the rim is just slightly thicker. I will need to check it with my calipers.

Now, if I dropped the C225-55-RF bullet in the .22mag cylinder, it goes nearly all the way to the front of the cylinder. It would take very little pressure to seat it and still stay shy of the front end of the cylinder. I'm not so certain that the .22 power loads will expand enough to seal the .22mag chamber though. Considering how close our hand is to the cylinder on a small revolver like that, I'm hesitant to find out what it feels like to have the hot gases hitting my hand.

So, my next experiment was with a 10" barrel Ruger Mk-II. Because of the small ejection port opening, it's not easy to seat a bullet, so I decided to just test it with feeding the powder load and seeing if it would eject. When I pulled back the bolt and let it go, it picked up a cartridge and chambered it like it should. I then tried to eject the live cartridge and it ejected without a problem. I then reloaded it and went outside and fired it. It fired, but did not eject. As can probably be expected, there was ZERO recoil. The bolt did not lock back, so I figured that it just did not develop the back pressure to cause the bolt to lock back. When I pulled the bolt back manually, the empty brass remained in the chamber. So, I pushed a rod down the end of the barrel and the spent brass came out easily.

Examination of the spent brass showed that the crimped portion expanded to chamber diameter, but a small portion of the botttleneck area between the crimp and the main diameter of the cartridge did not expand as much. There were one split in the case, but it was on one of the crimp lines and only extended to the bottleneck portion that did not expand. It did not extend into the main body of the cartridge. So, I'm thinking that the rest of the cartridge expanded and acted as a seal to the pressure, just like it was supposed to do. I had been concerned that the additional power in one of these loads might cause the bolt to slide back too far and thus need a heavier spring to prevent it from doing damage to the bolt or frame, but at least without a bullet in the chamber, that is not a concern.

If I end up having to use a rod to remove the spent casing each time, that wouldn't be an issue for me. Hell, the muzzle loader folks have to use rods to seat their bullets all the way down the barrel -- having to use one to eject the brass is a lot less effort.

I have a Ruger 10/22, but I'm thinking that the ejection port opening on it would not make it any easier to set a bullet from the breech, so I'll probably avoid testing with that one. I have a Ruger Mini-14 and a .22LR conversion kit for it. I'm thinking that it might be a bit easier to set a bullet from the breach with that one. I'll have to look at the kit a bit to see if it will work.

[6mm win lee]

Is there any chance the nail blanks could be corrosive? I might have missed that bit of info in the previous posts.

[retread]

Some power loads are 27 cal, such as the ones I have for my "Molecat" mole killer.

[Traffer]

I think that the idea of making a gun that shoots nail gun charges as propellant with a separate bullet is a great idea. Don't know if strictly the 22 is the anwser. There are bigger shells out there And you could could makd a gun say a 22lr barrel with the chamber reamed to accept a biger nail gun charge. I believe that Winchester makes a 25 or 26 caliber nail gun shell. It is the one they necck down to make Id I didn't have so many irons in the fire i would have been pursud this new fun game..I am getting really tired falling asleep at the desk, have to stop. by fellas. Will chat more tomorrow

[jmorris]

NavyVet, you have larger ones than I do. I used one of my Savage 24's when I was playing around.

The cylinder on my NAA is so thin I wouldn't have felt comfortable and wouldn't have wanted to blow out an extractor on a semiauto either.

You are right to be cautious, a good rest and long string might save a trip to the ER...

[NavyVet1959]

NavyVet, you have larger ones than I do. I used one of my Savage 24's when I was playing around.

The cylinder on my NAA is so thin I wouldn't have felt comfortable and wouldn't have wanted to blow out an extractor on a semiauto either.

You are right to be cautious, a good rest and long string might save a trip to the ER...

The .22 mag and .22LR cylinders look to be the same diameter. Since the .22mag cartridge diameter is slightly larger than the .22LR cartridge diameter, that made me start wondering, so I checked the SAAMI pressure for each. Turns out that they are the *same* -- 24,000 psi. As such, that means that the .22LR cylinder would be *slightly* stronger on the NAA revolver.

I would prefer to be using a break action rifle though. Unfortunately, I don't have one chambered in .22LR at this time. What I do have though is an old 12-gauge single shot shotgun that I had stumbled across for a really cheap price. I had thought it might make a wall hanger if it didn't function, but surprisingly, it worked very well -- just needs a new butt plate. If I had a lathe, I would be tempted to get one of the Green Mountain "gunsmith special" .22LR "raw" barrels and machine it down to the point where it would fit exactly in the entire length of the barrel, perhaps silver soldering it to the 12-gauge barrel to make it permanent.

One thing that I did notice when I fired the powder load out of the Ruger Mk-II was that the sound had the sort of "crack sound" that you associate with a rifle when the projectile is supersonic, even though there was no projectile being expelled.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

While I don't trust cutting into one of those blanks, it would be possible to make a safe device for squeezing the rim a little thinner. If its diameter is excessive I don't think you could do much about that except widen the rim recess in the gun slightly. Unlike deepening the recess, that wouldn't impair its performance or safety with normal .22LR.

The shotgun idea would work, but it would become exceedingly heavy for a .22. You should try weighing it down to the same amount, and seeing if that is acceptable. You could install a much shorter barrel, in which the .22LR and very likely its substitutes comes close to developing full velocity. It would be much quieter than an ordinary .22 rifle, but you should check the legality in case that counts as a suppressor. You could even fill the rest of the barrel with baffles. I wouldn't use high melting-point silver solder, though. Epoxy, Loctite or soft solder would all be better, and let you out of refinishing the barrel.

Of course doing all this with one of the often advocated centerfire .22 alternatives would let you out of a tricky job on the firing-pin.

[jmorris]

What I do have though is an old 12-gauge single shot shotgun that I had stumbled across for a really cheap price.

I have used drops from barrels to make inserts.



Just remember it will need to be off center for a rimfire.



These are pretty cheap.

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/ad/881160.htm

I think that would be a safer way to go at least until you know what your dealing with.

[w30wcf]

CAUTION! I would suggest NOT USING THE NO. 2 WITH A 55 gr bullet.

Pressures would be beyond .22 L.R. I consider the No. 2 maximum with a 40 gr. bullet as it went over 1,300 f.p.s.

I have used the power loads in my 39A and the fired cases ejected normally from the rifle.

w30wcf

[dverna]

jmorris,

The insert idea is excellent. It would allow a user to inexpensively deepen the chamber (home made reamer) so that seating the bullet would be a simple "drop in" without buggering up the barrel on a .22 gun. Standardizing on one bullet would allow the chamber to be a perfect fit yielding the same power load and bullet relationship every time. That is easier than having a tool to push the bullet into the rifling.

Of course, one needs a cheap single barrel 12 ga but those are not difficult to find.

I wonder how difficult it will be to remove the spent case? There appears to be a shallow cut out in the photo (at 12:00). It that for flicking it out with a fingernail?

Good thread

Don Verna

[Chev. William]

Very good information on the Adapters.
I would think a 20 ga. Single Shot shot gun would be more easily Located/obtained.

Also Don't rule out the "long barrel" Adapter just yet.
For a 12Ga., it would be possible to fit a .22RF "liner" with a 12 ga chamber adapter and a Bore sized Support at the Muzzle end (possibly fine threaded as a "Nut" to secure the Inserted adapter liner in tension). The Liners I have seen seem to be about 1/2 inch diameter which should be plenty strong for a .22 Bore rifle. that would leave most of the 12 ga. Bore free of steel contact and easily cleaned by removing the adapter/liner setup.
A clearance Cut for 12 ga. extractor clearance on the chamber end of the adapter might be a good idea. and a cut to access the rim for extraction of the spent cartridge case would also be nice.

Just some thoughts on the subject,
Chev. William

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Tension will still vary as it heats up. I think a better idea would be a screw-in bushing in which the liner slides freely, like a half-inch bored choke tube if you are lucky enough to find a single threaded for them. It would make liner heat totally uniform. A 20ga would indeed be better than a 12 for this purpose, and a good .410, with the bore reamed and no air-space, should be strong enough if the firing-pin is good.

[NavyVet1959]

While I don't trust cutting into one of those blanks, it would be possible to make a safe device for squeezing the rim a little thinner. If its diameter is excessive I don't think you could do much about that except widen the rim recess in the gun slightly. Unlike deepening the recess, that wouldn't impair its performance or safety with normal .22LR.

I measured the rim thickness of 8 .22LR cartridges and 8 .22 power loads. The power loads were definitely thicker. I don't have the measurements handy, but IIRC, it was something like 0.042 vs 0.050. I left the paper that I had written the numbers on over at my reloading "shack'. When I get a chance, I'll get them and update these numbers.

I took a small nut that was just slightly too small for the round to slide into it and drilled it out with a drill bit that was close to the size of the .22 power load. That was too small for the slots in my arbor press, so I took one of my condiment cup ingots and drilled a hole in it so that the nose of the power load could go into it. The ingot was wide enough to bridge the slot in the arbor press. I then used the arbor press to put a bit of pressure on the base of the power load while in this holder and measured it. I didn't want to go too far, so I would give it a nudge and then measure it again. After about three attempts, it was within the range of thicknesses that I had encountered on the .22 LR ammo. When I later tried it out with the NAA mini revolver, the cylinder rotated freely, so it was definitely an issue with that particular brand of power loads with the NAA cylinder. I think the NAA uses pretty tight tolerances on their cylinders though. I've had a similar problem with the .22 mag cylinder with normal .22 mag ammo.

So, I tried firing the reformed power load in the NAA, but no luck. It would not fire even after I rotated it in the chamber multiple times hoping to get a new strike spot under the hammer. I then tried putting one of the unmodified power loads in the .22 mag chamber. It rotated freely, so apparently the rim area on it is recessed just slightly more than the .22LR cylinder. I tried firing it in the .22mag cylinder, but it would not fire. I'm guessing that it is just not getting enough support under the rim to cause the primer to go off. I then took that load and put it in the Ruger Mk-II, but it would not fire either, even though the Ruger had not had a problem with a fresh power load yesterday. I tried a fresh load and it fired without a problem. I'm thinking that the act of the hammer in the NAA hitting the rim in the NAA might knock some of the primer loose if it doesn't set off the primer.

The shotgun idea would work, but it would become exceedingly heavy for a .22. You should try weighing it down to the same amount, and seeing if that is acceptable. You could install a much shorter barrel, in which the .22LR and very likely its substitutes comes close to developing full velocity. It would be much quieter than an ordinary .22 rifle, but you should check the legality in case that counts as a suppressor. You could even fill the rest of the barrel with baffles. I wouldn't use high melting-point silver solder, though. Epoxy, Loctite or soft solder would all be better, and let you out of refinishing the barrel.

I'm not worried about the weight. It probably wouldn't be any heavier than the old Winchester Model 90 with the thick octagon barrel that I have and I killed a lot of squirrels and crows with it when I was a kid.

Installing a chamber adapter / barrel insert would not qualify as sound suppressor, but if someone was so inclined, I could see how they *could* make an integral sound suppressor out of a 12-gauge barrel with a .22LR insert in it. You could start out with a barrel insert that was 10" or so long, attaching it basically permanently to the 12-gauge barrel. From there, you could create a series baffles and spacers that you could slide into the barrel from the muzzle end. Keep this up until you get to the muzzle end of the barrel. The muzzle end of the barrel could be threaded (either internally or externally) so that you could screw a cap / plug into it that would put pressure on the baffles and spacers to keep them tight. This cap / plug would then have the same diameter hole in the center of it as the baffles did (i.e. for whatever caliber you are converting it to).

At least that would seem like it would work for an internal suppressor from what I've seen of suppressor design on YouTube.

Of course doing all this with one of the often advocated centerfire .22 alternatives would let you out of a tricky job on the firing-pin.

The purpose of this experiment is to find a way for someone to be able to shoot a .22LR firearm for less than the current cost of .22LR ammo AND even less than the cost of centerfire alternatives. If I just wanted a centerfire alternative, I would use my .223 barrel for my Encore and load a couple of grains of Red Dot / Promo in it.

[NavyVet1959]

CAUTION! I would suggest NOT USING THE NO. 2 WITH A 55 gr bullet.

Pressures would be beyond .22 L.R. I consider the No. 2 maximum with a 40 gr. bullet as it went over 1,300 f.p.s.

I have used the power loads in my 39A and the fired cases ejected normally from the rifle.

The #1 loads should come in tomorrow, so I'll wait for them before trying any actual bullets.

I'm thinking though that the stronger power loads could still possibly be used if you were to seat the bullet a bit further out.

[Chev. William]

Is there any chance the nail blanks could be corrosive? I might have missed that bit of info in the previous posts.

To The best of my Knowledge and belief All Modern Powder Tool Loads are "non-mercuric, non-corrosive, and non-sulfurous" as all are commercially loaded with modern primer material and Modern Smokeless Propellants.

Blank Cartridges on the other hand are sometimes loaded with Black Powder which is corrosive if not cleaned out soon after Use.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[jmorris]

Maybe a visual is in order. I can't think of a firearm with as small a margin of safety for something like this than the mini revolvers. The thinnest part of the cylinder is only .030" thick.

Not to mention when the case blows it's going to go out the firing pin notch, hit the top strap and go both directions or even righ out the top, even if the cylinder is unharmed the odds of your hand(s) being damaged are drastically increased.

[jmorris]

The chamber adapter I made was just a drop of barrel I turned to the right shape.

[NavyVet1959]

The chamber adapter I made was just a drop of barrel I turned to the right shape.

Yet another reason why it would be really nice to get a lathe one of these days...

[Hick]

With my CZ in 223 remington I play with Lyman 225646 boolits, no gas check, Tumble-lubed using Ben's T/L, over 3.5 grains of W231 and get 22LR performance for a nickle a round-- including the cost of the primers. That's less that what most 22LR cartridges cost these days. That my 22 LR alternative.

[NavyVet1959]

The 10,000 power loads did not come in today, even though they were listed as "out for delivery" on the USPS site. So, no testing with the #1 level loads in any of the firearms.

Instead, I dug out a Ruger Mini-14 from the back of my gun safe and installed the .22LR conversion kit on it. It's been at least 8 years since I had it installed and it took awhile to figure out how it goes together. Ended up with one small piece leftover though.

I'm hoping that was for a different generation of the Mini-14. It seems to cycle manually OK, so I decided to get it a test.

I tried dropping a bullet in the chamber adapter and then putting the powder load behind it, but the bullet would not slide far enough down the chamber adapter for that to work. So, I just tried it with just the power load. It fired, but like the Ruger Mk-II, did not eject. Probably needs the bullet to give it a bit of back pressure. One difference though was that the extractor did not have a problem removing the spent brass from chamber when I operated it manually. Also, the crimped neck did not split this time.

Oh well... Another test, another data point...