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Thread: .22 rimfire alternative

  1. #41
    Boolit Master Oyeboten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyVet1959 View Post
    What is the chamber diameter on that tool?
    My "Bolt Shooter" or "Plate Gun" is not handy right now ( it is in another State ) but it was made I think in the 1950s, and in theory one was supposed to obtain a Licence to operate it, even though I doubt anything ever came of that.

    It looks like a Pistol and breaks open with a twist, for chambering a Cartridge. One chambers the projectile first, from the breech as it were, then inserts a reducer which is in effect the Chamber as such then, and the reducer is what accepts the .22 Blank.

    Mine is a Winchester Olin if memory serve and has two different Barrels, for use with two different diameter Bolts or Nails.

    Nickle plated Long cases were in effect, the 'Magnum' Cartridges, and Brass, the low power range of color codes.

    One used the Nickle Placed long Case Loads for the larger ( 3/8ths of in inch I think, ) diameter Bolts or larger diameter hardened Nails.

    It will put a 3/8ths Hardened Steel Bolt through an I Beam flange or Wide Flane Beam Flange or Web, but I do not recall the limits, maybe 1/2 inch though.

    These got going originaly in WWI for various War Production things, so there should be some interesting 'old' versions of them out there, but I think the oldest I ever came across were maybe from the late 1930s or WWII era and they were not much different than mine in design and size and operation.

    Sadly now, it is very hard or about impossible to find the Nails and Bolts for the old style true direct "Gun" Type "Powder Actuated" Fastening Guns...it all went to 'piston driven' and the projectiles/Nails/Bolts are sized differently and do not fit the old Barrels, and or the fasteners have Washers on them, where, the old System, one stuck a Washer ( usualy with a dab of spit ) on to the Muzzle End, for the Nail to go through the Washer as the Nail or Bolt is exiting the Muzzle, as when attaching Wood to Conrete or Steel.

    All the older ones I know of were .22 Calibre Chambers...newer ones are like 25 Calibre or something.

    One never sees any Nickle Plated long .22 "Magnum" ( one might call them ) Blanks for these, or I have not seen any, anywhere in about thiry years now.

    No idea if anyone even still makes them for the old style Plate Guns.

    In my own experience, I never got beyond the mid power level of the short Brass Blank charges, since all I was ever using mine for was shooting Sill Plates on to Concrete Slabs, or, shooting Backing Studs on to Grouted Masonry Walls, so...I never fired any of the 'Magnum' Loads or the larger diameter Bolts/Nails.
    Last edited by Oyeboten; 10-13-2016 at 05:02 AM.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by w30wcf View Post
    The No. 2 contains 1.7 grs. of a powder that is very close to Bullseye in burning rate. That is a bit too much for using it with a 22 bullet in a 22 L.R. chamber. The No. 1 would be better as it would contain less powder but I don't know how much.

    w30wcf
    I don't suppose the makers actually say so, and the free burning rate doesn't mean a thing. With black powder the burning rate is approximately in proportion to the pressure under which it burns. But with smokeless pressure increases the burning rate much more than that. In plain terms, anything that tends to increase pressure a little, increases it a lot.

    Almost nothing except a bore obstruction will burst an unflawed rifle barrel of normal proportions. It is one or other (or more) of the breech components that fails. Some of the best rifles for separate loading of the projectile, such as the Stevens 44, could liberate rim fragments or gas in a dangerous direction even if the rifle is undamaged.

    General Hatcher describes how people occasionally acquired EC Blank powder, as used in blanks and grenades, and mistook it for EC shotgun powder, with disastrous results. That wasn't so very different in free burning rate either.

  3. #43
    Boolit Master Oyeboten's Avatar
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    Any ideas about whether an average old 1940s/1950s Sears & Roebuck Bolt Action single shot .22 woud be alright with mid range power color code "Blanks' meant for Powder Actuated Fastening Guns...using a light .22 Cal Air Rifle Pellet ahead of the Blank?

    Whether this would bother or strain the Rifle?

    This does sound like it wold be fun to try out!

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oyeboten View Post
    Any ideas about whether an average old 1940s/1950s Sears & Roebuck Bolt Action single shot .22 woud be alright with mid range power color code "Blanks' meant for Powder Actuated Fastening Guns...using a light .22 Cal Air Rifle Pellet ahead of the Blank?

    Whether this would bother or strain the Rifle?

    This does sound like it wold be fun to try out!
    From what I've gathered from watching the YouTube videos of people using the airgun pellets, if you put too much powder behind them, you have a chance of the head separating from the skirt of the pellet and it leaving the skirt in the barrel. I would be more inclined to use some appropriately sized round balls or a light cast bullet of around 0.225". Since I don't currently have a roundball mold of this size, I would be more inclined to try it with the Lee C225-55-RNF mold that I already have. Seating it deeper will reduce the chamber pressure.

  5. #45
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    Noticed an eBay sell going on and won the bid on 10K of the #1 brass power loads for $60. That would be like getting 500 rounds for $3. These are the lowest power loads, so I might need to figure out a way to open them up and add a grain or so of powder to them if I'm not satisfied with the velocity that they give me. I'm thinking a nail stuck in my drill press and then sharpened to a very fine point with a long gradual slope might just be enough to pry the crimps apart. Not with the drill running, of course -- just using it as kind of like an arbor press.

    Also bought a 3500 round batch of #2 power loads for $77. That works out to be $11 per 500, or $2.20 per 100, so slightly cheaper than the manufacturer's distributor that I was mentioning originally.

    So, I've got the lowest two power levels to play with.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oyeboten View Post
    Any ideas about whether an average old 1940s/1950s Sears & Roebuck Bolt Action single shot .22 woud be alright with mid range power color code "Blanks' meant for Powder Actuated Fastening Guns...using a light .22 Cal Air Rifle Pellet ahead of the Blank?

    Whether this would bother or strain the Rifle?

    This does sound like it wold be fun to try out!
    The only guaranteed answer to that one is "Don't know". I am fairly sure something useful could be done, but it mightn't be what everybody wants, and it should be done carefully.

    I would start with the mildest blanks available, and work up more power if that seems safe and is wanted. It is possible that the mildest will give you nothing but an indoor or backyard target performance. You could be left with a lot of unused blanks if that isn't what you want, so I would buy the smallest available pack first.

    The commonest kind of air-rifle pellets can deform their skirts even in the more powerful guns which need licensing in the UK. Even if it isn't outright collapse or fragmentation, it could harm the balance of the pellet. I would rather use round balls. But a mould would be hard to get, and so is the US size F, a nominal .220in. diameter. I don't know how closely they keep to dimensions, as birdshot only has to be good for shooting birds.

    I wouldn't try to open up the crimp on these blanks, and certainly not to smooth them out enough to grip the projectile. Separate loading is a possibility, but it would make for consistency if the projectile is always identically located, and doesn't slide down that longer chamber. It could be secured to the case with thin gummed paper, especially if the blank narrows down near the crimp to accommodate it. Or a more solid hollow based projectile than the air-rifle slug could be stuck to the crimp with a hard wax like sealing-wax, or superglue. Here is a pictured of a hollow-pointing device I posted recently, and you could make one of those F shot into a round-nosed, hollow based bullet with something very similar.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Hollow pointing die.jpg 
Views:	346 
Size:	13.7 KB 
ID:	178689

    For inserting the blanks in a rifle action with poor access, you could stick a piece of wide tape to a strip of wood or something, score it into quarter inch strips, and stick the head of a blank to each piece. Then to load, pull off a blank, insert it with the tape as a handle, and pull off the tape before closing the bolt.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ola View Post
    Some years ago a local gun rag had an article where they tried to explode the famous Ruger MKII pistol. "Can it really take anything? Is it really unbreakable?" They used lot's of these power loads to propel stuff out of the barrel. Like steel cleaning rods, drill bits etc. The barrel was of course damaged and some little parts like extractor went missing but they just could not break the pistol. The reason is the case: if there is excessive pressure, the case will rupture and release the pressure to the rear.
    That result doesn't surprise me, although I wouldn't fancy betting any portion of my anatomy on it. I don't think it was due to the case, though. I believe anything that was going to happen would happen before the bolt had moved far enough back to permit anything but escape of gas, and possibly minute fragments of metal, from a cracked rim.

  8. #48
    Boolit Master Oyeboten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyVet1959 View Post
    What is the chamber diameter on that tool?
    On my old Winchester Olin, the Chamber is .22 RF, and more or less .22 Magnum for length for the higher power range of Cartridge Blanks.

    Chamber as such is a seperate piece which one puts in after breech Loading the Nail or Bolt...Chamber then drops in, and one inserts the blank Cartridge in to the Chamber.

    Short chamber for the lower range Brass Cartridges, long Chamber for the long Nickel Plated Cartridges.

    Barrel is smooth bore of course, and about 3/8ths of an inch or so bore.

    None of the Modern 'Guns' are Breech Loaders, all that went away decades ago and everyone went to a system where the Nail or Bolt gets put in to the end of the Muzzle, and a Piston is moved forward and against it.

    This works for Fastening contexts, and pretty well prevents any real Velocity then if firing it "like a Gun".

    The old ones were a Gun literally, and one could 'shoot from the hip' or whatever if one wanted, although of course that is NOT how they would be used in any fastening context.

    Fastening contexts, the end of the Muzzle is always pressed "hard" against the thing one is firing in to.
    It never occured to me to take mine to the outdoor Range and try shooting Targets at various distances, but, now that I am thinking about that, it would be fun to try.
    Last edited by Oyeboten; 10-13-2016 at 04:01 PM.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballistics in Scotland View Post
    I don't suppose the makers actually say so, and the free burning rate doesn't mean a thing.

    General Hatcher describes how people occasionally acquired EC Blank powder, as used in blanks and grenades, and mistook it for EC shotgun powder, with disastrous results. That wasn't so very different in free burning rate either.
    Actually, in this case it does because the No. 3, which contains 2.1 grs. of smokeless, produced ballistics equivalent to the same charge weight of Bullseye in the .32 LC rimfire.

    w30wcf
    Last edited by w30wcf; 10-13-2016 at 04:14 PM.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyVet1959 View Post
    From what I've gathered from watching the YouTube videos of people using the airgun pellets, if you put too much powder behind them, you have a chance of the head separating from the skirt of the pellet and it leaving the skirt in the barrel. I would be more inclined to use some appropriately sized round balls or a light cast bullet of around 0.225". Since I don't currently have a roundball mold of this size, I would be more inclined to try it with the Lee C225-55-RNF mold that I already have. Seating it deeper will reduce the chamber pressure.

    That makes sense, sure...

    Round Balls would work very well I think.

    And or one could size them down to suit, if using some slightly too large Gauge Shotgun Shot...ust run them through a sizing die.


    The Videos I have seen, the Pellet is loaded form the Breech, to a depth which will have the Pellet some little bit aways from the front of the Blank Cartridge.

    This distance then would in efect be one's "Loading Density", so I expect it would play a significant role in how much pressure is developed, and the FPS one will acheive.
    Last edited by Oyeboten; 10-13-2016 at 04:11 PM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyVet1959 View Post
    Noticed an eBay sell going on and won the bid on 10K of the #1 brass power loads for $60. That would be like getting 500 rounds for $3. These are the lowest power loads, so I might need to figure out a way to open them up and add a grain or so of powder to them if I'm not satisfied with the velocity that they give me. I'm thinking a nail stuck in my drill press and then sharpened to a very fine point with a long gradual slope might just be enough to pry the crimps apart. Not with the drill running, of course -- just using it as kind of like an arbor press.

    Also bought a 3500 round batch of #2 power loads for $77. That works out to be $11 per 500, or $2.20 per 100, so slightly cheaper than the manufacturer's distributor that I was mentioning originally.

    So, I've got the lowest two power levels to play with.
    Congratulations on finding some No. 1 to try. Using a tapered nail is how I have opened the crimp to remove the powder. Please let us know what the charge weight of powder the No. 1's hold.

    I would consider the No. 2's the absolute maximum (1.7 grs. of smokeless) with a 40 gr. lead alloy bullet as it produced in excess of 1,300 f.p.s. in my Marlin 39A. With a 30 gr lead bullet - 1,514 f.p.s.

    One issue you will run into is chambering a 40 gr bullet in front of the powder load as the OAL is .10" beyond the OAL of a .22 LR cartridge. As I found out, it will require a bit of force to push it into the rifling .

    w30wcf
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  12. #52
    Boolit Master Oyeboten's Avatar
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    This illustration shows a Plate Gun which is the same basic design as mine, only this one, circa 1961, is some ways newer.

    This was the general lay out of the Winchester Olin 'Guns' for several decades anyway.

    http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/...oKL/s-l225.jpg

  13. #53
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    The power fastener tool that I own is the most basic hammer actuated one. Something like this, IIRC:



    I needed it for one project about 20 years ago when closing off a section of my garage for a laundry room and needed to attach the 2x4s to the concrete at the base of the wall. I haven't needed it since then, so I have no idea where it is anymore. It's probably in the garage, *somewhere*...

  14. #54
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    RE: Number 1, or Grade 1, Nail gun blanks Propellant charge;
    The ones i obtained a While back contained 1.31 grains of a 'Flake' type Propellant.
    I did open the ones I measure with a Finishing Nail, sharpened, chucked in a Bench drill Press. this opened The Star Crimp enough to pour the Propellant powder out into my Balance beam Scale.

    RE: Cast Projectiles availability; I have Purchased Cast "air rifle pellets" from "Hunters Supply" for my experiments they List several Round nose and Flat nose Bullets as 'Air rifle Pellets'. They Do have a Web site.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  15. #55
    In Remembrance w30wcf's Avatar
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    Chev William,
    Thank you for that information. I remembered reading your post elsewhere about that. I recently took some No.2's and reduced the powder charge to 1.3 grs. I'm going to try them under a 40 gr. bullet and see what the chronograph says.

    w30wcf
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by w30wcf View Post
    Congratulations on finding some No. 1 to try. Using a tapered nail is how I have opened the crimp to remove the powder. Please let us know what the charge weight of powder the No. 1's hold.

    I would consider the No. 2's the absolute maximum (1.7 grs. of smokeless) with a 40 gr. lead alloy bullet as it produced in excess of 1,300 f.p.s. in my Marlin 39A. With a 30 gr lead bullet - 1,514 f.p.s.

    One issue you will run into is chambering a 40 gr bullet in front of the powder load as the OAL is .10" beyond the OAL of a .22 LR cartridge. As I found out, it will require a bit of force to push it into the rifling .

    w30wcf
    Here's a pic showing the extra length of the 40 gr / power load as compared to a .22 L.R. which = a press fit into the rifling.

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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by w30wcf View Post
    Actually, in this case it does because the No. 3, which contains 2.1 grs. of smokeless, produced ballistics equivalent to the same charge weight of Bullseye in the .32 LC rimfire.

    w30wcf
    While the results people are reporting with moderate power are encouraging, and unlikely to be accompanied by excessive peak pressure. But close examination of the cases is still advisable. Velocity depends on the average pressure, not peak pressure, and the time for which it is applied. It is perfectly possible for the same velocity to be obtained by moderate pressure sustained most of the way down the barrel, or by an extremely high peak pressure which falls off quickly. Centerfire handloaders do it frequently.

    I don't know if you train gundogs with a dummy thrower in the US, but these blanks could be useful. I don't believe they have a star crimp. They aren't cheap but neither are nail-gun cartridges here unless bought in bulk. It seems unlikely that they are made for that rather small market, so they are probably used for something else. Presumably you would see what is inside before cutting these shorter, and I think their length and straightness would let you use a pipe-cutter.

    http://www.innerwolf.co.uk/22-dummy-...er-blanks.html

    Lodging the bullet in the rifling demands care. If you deliberately or accidentally unload a live case you might leave the bullet there and ram it ahead of the next one. It should be good for accuracy, though. That is why the Stevens 44 with its tilting block was a front runner as a British rimfire target rifle, when the only Martinis available were the converted large military ones. But the trigger pull wasn't subject to much improvement, and then the small Martinis with Francotte's removable action frame came along.

  18. #58
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    From what I've gathered from watching the YouTube videos of people using the airgun pellets, if you put too much powder behind them, you have a chance of the head separating from the skirt of the pellet and it leaving the skirt in the barrel.
    I haven't seen that in my use but I have seen them "spray" the pellet out.

  19. #59
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    I believe the "Pellets" used in the videos are the very light "wasp waist" skirted Types.
    There are Also some Solid cylindrical body pellets out there along with true 'bullet shape" Pellets with Grooves in them that can carry Lubricant.

    Check the offerings of "Hunters Supply" (http://hunters-supply.com/shop/index...e66pj4lu6heuc1) as they list many.

    Best Regards
    Chev. William

  20. #60
    Boolit Master Oyeboten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chev. William View Post
    I believe the "Pellets" used in the videos are the very light "wasp waist" skirted Types.
    There are Also some Solid cylindrical body pellets out there along with true 'bullet shape" Pellets with Grooves in them that can carry Lubricant.

    Check the offerings of "Hunters Supply" (http://hunters-supply.com/shop/index...e66pj4lu6heuc1) as they list many.

    Best Regards
    Chev. William
    Looks like "Hunters Supply" has quite a few really nice Bullets.

    I was wondering lately if there are any suppliers of Hollow Point Lead Bullets for .380 and 9mm and there they are!

    Your timing was perfect with sharing this link...thanks!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check