.22 rimfire alternative

[Jniedbalski]

The sub adaptor is called Hammond game getter

[GhostHawk]

In my case much easier to use .223, 9mm, 7.62x39 or .357 handi rifle with zero danger.
Cheaper to load than most .22lr if you cast your own boolits and use inexpensive shotgun powders at low levels.

With slow speeds you can leave off the gas check.

[gnoahhh]

Would it? Do shotgun chambers get ringed?

Of course not. A shotshell is a tightly compacted package- no chance of a wad of some sort to get a "running start" before impinging upon a projectile, and thence creating the ring in the chamber wall adjacent to the impact point. Hence my question "is there wad inside the cartridge?" - And if so, is it down low in the case where it can get a running start before impinging on the bullet seated ahead of and separate from the case?

Breech seating a "normal" chamber such as a .32-40 is done by putting a wad flush in the case mouth to hold whatever level powder charge is beneath it. The wad is thence buttressed against the base of the pre-seated bullet or very close to it and doesn't have a chance at that running start.

[Ola]

(This might be considered OFF TOPIC, but might also considered interesting.)

Couple little stories concerning these power loads:

Some years ago a local gun rag had an article where they tried to explode the famous Ruger MKII pistol. "Can it really take anything? Is it really unbreakable?" They used lot's of these power loads to propel stuff out of the barrel. Like steel cleaning rods, drill bits etc. The barrel was of course damaged and some little parts like extractor went missing but they just could not break the pistol. The reason is the case: if there is excessive pressure, the case will rupture and release the pressure to the rear.

Another one:

Lapua ammunition factory explosion is said to be caused by super fast powder used in POWER LOADS. When that powder ignited in the loading machine, it burned so fast at by-passed all the safety measures and reached the "powder magazine" they had upstairs.. This is what happened after that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapua_...tory_explosion

[NavyVet1959]

There is a sub caliber adapter that use the 22 blanks called the game getter.I thank they are made in canada. He can make them in a lot of differnt calibers.i was looking at the 303 British and 7.62x54R. I thank the lower power loads worked the best the brown ones and green ones. You load the back of the game getter with a power load 22 that is off set in a special made shell then load the front of the shell with a sized round ball ,sizer included in the kit . I would included the link but I don't know if it's allowed on this site. I thank the lowest power load was 500/600 fps for the 7.62x54r and round ball. They are supposed to make good 25 yard plinker loads

I found their webpage. That's very similar to what I was talking about, but instead of actually loading the projectile in the adapter, I was thinking more along the line of inserting it in the chamber as a separate operation. Something like was done with the 16" projectiles on the Iowa-class battleship's guns.

[NavyVet1959]

Of course not. A shotshell is a tightly compacted package- no chance of a wad of some sort to get a "running start" before impinging upon a projectile, and thence creating the ring in the chamber wall adjacent to the impact point. Hence my question "is there wad inside the cartridge?" - And if so, is it down low in the case where it can get a running start before impinging on the bullet seated ahead of and separate from the case?

Breech seating a "normal" chamber such as a .32-40 is done by putting a wad flush in the case mouth to hold whatever level powder charge is beneath it. The wad is thence buttressed against the base of the pre-seated bullet or very close to it and doesn't have a chance at that running start.

It is my understanding that the brass is crimped and it appears that the paint on the end of the crimp that indicates the powder level also seals the crimp so that no powder can come out. I won't know for certain unless I get one of them and dissect it. Since some of the tools that use these powder loads have a captive bolt, I would think that if it had any wad in there, it would gum up the workings eventually.

[NavyVet1959]

Couple little stories concerning these power loads:

Some years ago a local gun rag had an article where they tried to explode the famous Ruger MKII pistol. "Can it really take anything? Is it really unbreakable?" They used lot's of these power loads to propel stuff out of the barrel. Like steel cleaning rods, drill bits etc. The barrel was of course damaged and some little parts like extractor went missing but they just could not break the pistol. The reason is the case: if there is excessive pressure, the case will rupture and release the pressure to the rear.

I have one of those with the 10" bull barrel. If you look at how thick that barrel is, you have to wonder if it is even possible to put enough powder in a .22LR case to cause damage to that barrel. From what I've read, the bull barrel has a diameter of 0.875" and the receiver is 0.993". That means a barrel wall thickness of 144% of the caliber and a receiver wall thickness of 171% of the caliber.

I have a .50BMG barrel that is 1.625" in diameter. The .50 BMG round is 0.804" at the base, so that means that the wall thickness is only 51% of the chamber diameter, but it is good for 54,800 psi according to the specs on that round. I believe that both are made from 4140 steel. That would make me think that the Mk-II's barrel and receiver should be able to handle some pretty serious pressure. I couldn't find an easy way to replace the recoil spring on a Mk-II with one that was significantly heavier though.

Lapua ammunition factory explosion is said to be caused by super fast powder used in POWER LOADS. When that powder ignited in the loading machine, it burned so fast at by-passed all the safety measures and reached the "powder magazine" they had upstairs.. This is what happened after that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapua_...tory_explosion

That wiki article doesn't quite say that. If you are sure of it, maybe you should edit the wiki article to reflect the additional knowledge that you have. Quote your sources in the edit, of course.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I bought some of these from Menards and then was told not to try it. Here's what I've thought lately;

Use those blanks as primed brass. Cut them off, figure out what a decent level charge is and either assemble ammo or breach seat a cast bullet and load one of these behind it with the right charge. I cast for .22 centerfires and a gas check design without the check just might take the place of a healed bullet the .22 LR uses.

Personally, I found it easier to get a .22 Hornet and develop light cast loads. For small game, they are better and more accurate than .22 LR anyway. For lighter work, I picked up an old Sheridan Blue Streak.

A pretty good rule for turning other branches of technology to firearms purposes, is that things are guaranteed for their intended purpose. There is no reason why a nail-gun blank shouldn't have small smears of primer composition on the inside walls, and you do not want to cut into that with a jewellers saw. As they are generally sealed, I wouldn't count on moistening the composition either.

I do remember from other threads that someone using them, I think for a .25 rimfire rifle, found that you could get quite useful small-game velocity with the weaker cartridges, and it escalated to alarming levels when more powerful ones were used. I don't believe he ever got to the most powerful. Some of these tools don't have any barrel to speak of, and communicate kinetic energy to a moving weight which strikes the nail. That might be done with much faster propellant than is used in firearms.

[Ola]

That wiki article doesn't quite say that. If you are sure of it, maybe you should edit the wiki article to reflect the additional knowledge that you have. Quote your sources in the edit, of course.

No it doesn't. I read that theory in the book "Patruunatehtaan räjähdys" ("official" history of the explosion of the Lapua factory).

[richhodg66]

A pretty good rule for turning other branches of technology to firearms purposes, is that things are guaranteed for their intended purpose. There is no reason why a nail-gun blank shouldn't have small smears of primer composition on the inside walls, and you do not want to cut into that with a jewellers saw. As they are generally sealed, I wouldn't count on moistening the composition either.

I do remember from other threads that someone using them, I think for a .25 rimfire rifle, found that you could get quite useful small-game velocity with the weaker cartridges, and it escalated to alarming levels when more powerful ones were used. I don't believe he ever got to the most powerful. Some of these tools don't have any barrel to speak of, and communicate kinetic energy to a moving weight which strikes the nail. That might be done with much faster propellant than is used in firearms.

Probably good advice, and again, a small pistol primer, 2 grains of Bullseye and 45 grains of free lead in a .22 Hornet does what I need it to do cheaper and better.

[NavyVet1959]

I do remember from other threads that someone using them, I think for a .25 rimfire rifle, found that you could get quite useful small-game velocity with the weaker cartridges, and it escalated to alarming levels when more powerful ones were used. I don't believe he ever got to the most powerful. Some of these tools don't have any barrel to speak of, and communicate kinetic energy to a moving weight which strikes the nail. That might be done with much faster propellant than is used in firearms.

I saw a wiki article on them and it specified some velocities given a "350 gr slug from a test device".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder-actuated_tool

Color coding	Velocity
Grey	315 ft/s (96 m/s)
Brown	385 ft/s (117 m/s)
Green	490 ft/s (150 m/s)
Yellow	575 ft/s (175 m/s)
Red	675 ft/s (206 m/s)
Purple	755 ft/s (230 m/s)

Color coding	Velocity
Grey	845 ft/s (258 m/s)
Brown	935 ft/s (285 m/s)
Green	1,025 ft/s (312 m/s)
Yellow	1,115 ft/s (340 m/s)
Red	1,205 ft/s (367 m/s)
Purple	1,295 ft/s (395 m/s)

I had seen the nickel cases, but I had assumed they were the same powder charge for the color as the brass cases. The ads didn't say anything about them being more powerful. That's a pretty big difference. The nickel-purple loading works out to be 1303 ft-lbs with that 350 gr projectile. Hard to believe that you could get that out of a *any* powder that you put in a .22LR case.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I saw a wiki article on them and it specified some velocities given a "350 gr slug from a test device".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder-actuated_tool

Color coding	Velocity
Grey	315 ft/s (96 m/s)
Brown	385 ft/s (117 m/s)
Green	490 ft/s (150 m/s)
Yellow	575 ft/s (175 m/s)
Red	675 ft/s (206 m/s)
Purple	755 ft/s (230 m/s)

Color coding	Velocity
Grey	845 ft/s (258 m/s)
Brown	935 ft/s (285 m/s)
Green	1,025 ft/s (312 m/s)
Yellow	1,115 ft/s (340 m/s)
Red	1,205 ft/s (367 m/s)
Purple	1,295 ft/s (395 m/s)

I had seen the nickel cases, but I had assumed they were the same powder charge for the color as the brass cases. The ads didn't say anything about them being more powerful. That's a pretty big difference. The nickel-purple loading works out to be 1303 ft-lbs with that 350 gr projectile. Hard to believe that you could get that out of a *any* powder that you put in a .22LR case.

Yes, but it doesn't say that that "device" was a barrel which imposes friction, and if not, it bears only a slight relationship to what might be achieved in a firearm. There used to be an adolescent prank of upending a blacksmith's anvil on top of another, with an ounce or so of black powder in the hardy hole which is used to hold punches, and a powder trail between them. The force would hurl an anvil in the air so fast that if liftoff wasn't straight, the beak of one anvil could be broken off against the other.

At least that was a pretty ordinary firearms propellant. But the substance in the nail-gun blank could be much faster-burning, with bore friction becoming even more important.

[jmorris]

There used to be an adolescent prank

Its now a sport with World Championships and competitions across the country.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...est-sport.html

[w30wcf]

The No. 2 contains 1.7 grs. of a powder that is very close to Bullseye in burning rate. That is a bit too much for using it with a 22 bullet in a 22 L.R. chamber. The No. 1 would be better as it would contain less powder but I don't know how much.

w30wcf

[Multigunner]

From a translation of a Finn article on the Lapua explosion.

"The machine was modified in Lapua own work in the 1960s to work in peace. It dispensed gunpowder panosnaulaimen or bolt pistol cartridges. Bolt Pistol was 60-century building tool, novelty, which can shoot steel nails or bolts in concrete or steel. "

The explosion started there. Apparently the machine dated to the 1920's and was at some point repurposed for loading nail gun blanks.

I've seen US Army grenade blank powder suggested as a substitute filler for grenades. These powders are for the most part extremely fast burning, more in the explosive category like BP.

[Hogdaddy]

The Ramset with purpul will shoot a nail thruogh 1/2 inch red iron ; )
H/D

[NavyVet1959]

The Ramset with purpul will shoot a nail thruogh 1/2 inch red iron ; )
H/D

What is the chamber diameter on that tool?

[Hogdaddy]

What is the chamber diameter on that tool?

Not quite sure I got two out in garage,, I'll get bacck on that,, The Pin diameter is in or close to 30 cal ; )
H/D

[w30wcf]

I have one of those with the 10" bull barrel. If you look at how thick that barrel is, you have to wonder if it is even possible to put enough powder in a .22LR case to cause damage to that barrel. From what I've read, the bull barrel has a diameter of 0.875" and the receiver is 0.993". That means a barrel wall thickness of 144% of the caliber and a receiver wall thickness of 171% of the caliber.

I have a .50BMG barrel that is 1.625" in diameter. The .50 BMG round is 0.804" at the base, so that means that the wall thickness is only 51% of the chamber diameter, but it is good for 54,800 psi according to the specs on that round. I believe that both are made from 4140 steel. That would make me think that the Mk-II's barrel and receiver should be able to handle some pretty serious pressure. I couldn't find an easy way to replace the recoil spring on a Mk-II with one that was significantly heavier though.

Navy Vet,
Yes it is possible to load a .22 L.R. to the point of case failure. The barrel would likely be ok but, at minimum, the extractor will depart from the gun when the back of the case blows out.

I would not use anything more powerful than the No. 2 (1.7 grs. powder) which produced 1,514 f.p.s. with a 30 gr bullet that I purchased from North American Arms.
https://northamericanarms.com/shop/parts/cbb2/

In the .32 Rimfire, the No.3 (2.1 grs. powder) pushed a 90 gr bullet to 960 f.p.s. (24" barrel) effectively duplicating factory ballistics produced with 2 grs of Bullseye.

My No.2 & No.3's have the Super X head stamp and there is no wad in them, just powder.




w30wcf

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Its now a sport with World Championships and competitions across the country.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...est-sport.html

Fascinating, although the title of world's strangest sport is a hotly contested one. It seems they put powder in a brick-sized cavity in the underside of the anvil, not the small one on the working face. So presumably a larger charge of powder is used.