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Thread: .22 rimfire alternative

  1. #221
    Boolit Master Traffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyVet1959 View Post
    Well, the Remington 514 barrel came in today and it looks to be in pretty good shape. It turns out that it is 24.75" long, which might actually end up being long enough that that with one of the .22LR rounds it is chambered for, you might actually end up *losing* velocity.

    I think I'll initially test it with the .22 power loads. I would prefer not to modify the existing .22LR chamber, so I'm thinking that for the .25 caliber power loads, I'll create a sleeve that fits over the barrel's breech shank which also extends another half inch or so and that sleeve will be chambered for the .25 caliber power load. Ideally, this would be threaded and I would have an identical one for .22 caliber power loads so I could make direct comparisons, but I have not gotten to the point where I'm comfortable enough with my mini-lathe to try single point threading on it. So, for initial testing, I'll probably just make a slam-fire "receiver" for it. I'm not concerned with the inaccuracy that a slam fire design will give me since this is going to just be a hard mounted test barrel and the only accuracy it needs is to NOT hit the chrony from 10 ft or so.
    Sounds like a good plan. Could you make two extensions to pin on instead of threading? What is the diameter of the tenon? on the barrel? Hopefully it is a size that can be copied easily. If you are making an extension I think you will need a reamer the right size.

    I wonder if the losing velocity thing would be lessened or done away with by using powder coated bullets. Since they are slicker than lubed lead it seems logical that they would not have as much of that affect. I just bought a new Chronograph. It is in the mail now. When it comes and when I can get everything together, I will compare everything identical except the powder coat to see if there is a difference from my 514.

    I used an old die that I had set aside to make the 22cal bullets to crimp onto the .25" power loads. Just realized that it was discarded because it makes .228" bullets. Do you think it would be dangerous to drive those big bullets down a 22lr barrel with a #4 power load?
    Last edited by Traffer; 03-30-2017 at 06:18 PM.
    Jedediah Morse
    "To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them.".







  2. #222
    Boolit Master
    Chev. William's Avatar
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    Run those .228" bullets through a sizing Die to bring their diameter down. Lee Makes Custom "Lube and Size Kits" that allow Pushing the Bullet straight though using a "Punch mounted on your reloading Press ram.
    I found that I needed custom punch of about 1.520" length to push the bullets all the way through in one movement. Lee made me two of the Longer Punches as a Special order.
    Perhaps you could make a special shape and longer punch to 'protect' the swaged base of your bullets?
    Also, a CAUTION: Lube any bullet you intend to resize so it does NOT 'gall' and leave a residue in the die. I found this out when I tried to size some Jacketed bullets without any lube. a .250 sizing die became a .251" sizing die after cleaning the Copper out.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  3. #223
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyVet1959 View Post
    Well, the Remington 514 barrel came in today and it looks to be in pretty good shape. It turns out that it is 24.75" long, which might actually end up being long enough that that with one of the .22LR rounds it is chambered for, you might actually end up *losing* velocity.

    I think I'll initially test it with the .22 power loads. I would prefer not to modify the existing .22LR chamber, so I'm thinking that for the .25 caliber power loads, I'll create a sleeve that fits over the barrel's breech shank which also extends another half inch or so and that sleeve will be chambered for the .25 caliber power load. Ideally, this would be threaded and I would have an identical one for .22 caliber power loads so I could make direct comparisons, but I have not gotten to the point where I'm comfortable enough with my mini-lathe to try single point threading on it. So, for initial testing, I'll probably just make a slam-fire "receiver" for it. I'm not concerned with the inaccuracy that a slam fire design will give me since this is going to just be a hard mounted test barrel and the only accuracy it needs is to NOT hit the chrony from 10 ft or so.
    NavyVet1959,
    Will your 'mini-lathe' handle turning a 2" chamber adapter?
    If so, it would make things slightly easier overall.
    You could bore a flat internal face at the bottom of a about 1-1/4" deep hole of suitable ID to take whatever thread you have on the Barrel tenon.
    turn a 'groove in the ID at the internal Face to 'clear the Major thread diameter and about
    1/4" long, leaving about 1" of the ID for threads.
    Use a Taper tap to start the threads until the tip of the tap touches the flat internal face.
    Replace The Taper tap with a Plug tap and cut the threads further until the tip of the Plug tap touches the internal face.
    Replace the Plug tap with a Bottoming tap and finish threading by again touching the internal face with the end of the tap.
    This should result in about 1" of complete Threads with no taper depth end threads in the bore.
    if your Barrel tenon will not allow the 'Breech face of the Barrel to screw into this so it is in contact with the internal face, bore the outer end of the adapter Threads a little at a time until the Barrel Breach face and the internal face make contact.

    Now Center drill the internal face and extend the center, with a stiff Drill bit, to a suitable depth of Hole concentric with the Bore.
    Part off the Bored and Threaded section and reverse in in your chuck to machine the other end for your chamber Adapter.

    The remainder of the machining would depend upon your choice of chamber and 'Breech' and 'bolt' design.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  4. #224
    Boolit Master
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    To make it simple,get a coupler nut ( very long nut) with the inside threads a little smaller than the OD of your barrel stub. Machine it out halfway through at the stub OD. Install it on the barrel stub using set screws installed in the machined out part of the nut. Now get a bolt that fits the inside thread of the nut. cut it off so that it fits against the back end of your barrel when screwed in and sticks the back end of the long nut far enough to add another nut. Drill the bolt through a little bigger than .225. Cut a chamber in the back end of the bolt for either the 22 power load or the 25 cal load. Or cut a second piece of bolt for a secong cal chamberNow another nut with a piece of bolt inside that has been drilled through for a firing pin. After loading you screw on the second nut with bolt and firing pin and hit the firing pin with a hammer. No threading and only a couple of simple lathe operations. If you have one of the Chineese 7x10 lathes, your chuck only has about a 5/8 through hole. Your head stock through hole is about .800 so the chuck will limit the size barrel you can work on with the 3 jaw chuck they come with.

  5. #225
    Boolit Master Traffer's Avatar
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    @ rbchuck and Chev.William
    Those are both great ideas for me too. I have yet another extra barrel from a Marlin 60. I could use this as a .25 cal power load test barrel and continue the work on a 22mag for the other. That way I could use the test barrel for other projects as well. The idea of using a rod coupler reamed to the diameter of the tennon is real nice. Could use that to make a bolt for a regular 22lr also. As long as the barrel is already chambered for that. A person may even be able to mill slots in the coupler and on the bolt so it would work like regular locking lugs on a bolt gun... may not be strong enough for that.
    Jedediah Morse
    "To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them.".







  6. #226
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    Ok, I broke down and bought my Grandaughter a cricket. It will be put away for a little while (she's only 18 mos). Found it on Gunbroker for $99. I just spent another $99 online getting accessories for it! Keystone even has "My first rifle" book, and a case made just for the little cricket and everything else. Maybe now I need to buy the case of 22 ammo (10 boxes of 325) from Midway @ $209 so Grandpa (me) will be ready. I am so looking forward to it......

  7. #227
    Boolit Master Traffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarry scarney View Post
    Ok, I broke down and bought my Grandaughter a cricket. It will be put away for a little while (she's only 18 mos). Found it on Gunbroker for $99. I just spent another $99 online getting accessories for it! Keystone even has "My first rifle" book, and a case made just for the little cricket and everything else. Maybe now I need to buy the case of 22 ammo (10 boxes of 325) from Midway @ $209 so Grandpa (me) will be ready. I am so looking forward to it......
    Bless you, Happy Grandpa! Hope you and her have years of lovely time together with the little cricket.
    Jedediah Morse
    "To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them.".







  8. #228
    Boolit Master



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    Well, I tried putting the Remington 514 barrel in my lathe today, but it would not go in very far. The taper of the barrel increases quickly enough that the end of the barrel is till well beyond the end of my lathe. I think the limiting factor is the hole in the 3-jaw chuck.

    But I did a test to see if a firing pin was necessary for the test rig and determined that having a flat surface against the rim and striking the other end of the flat surface will in fact cause the primer to fire. I had suspected as much, but I needed to test it to be sure. To keep my hand away from the brass in case it blew out, I used a piece of 1" diameter aluminum bar that was 2 ft long as the combination breech and firing "pin". I'll make the actual breech out of steel for the test rig, but this was just something that I had handy and required no modifications to use. Pretty quiet, even in my garage -- didn't even bother with ear plugs. Tested it with the #2 (brown) .22 caliber power loads.
    When you fill out your income tax forms at the end of the year, look and see how much money you have given the
    government throughout the year. Then, take a moment to ponder -- has the government done $X worth of
    stuff FOR you or TO you this year? I tend to believe the latter...

    Si vis pacem, para bellum -- If you want peace, prepare for war

    "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." -- Barry Goldwater

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  9. #229
    Boolit Master Traffer's Avatar
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    It can easily be an open bolt style gun. Much simpler than installing a firing pin. What did you use to ream the chamber? When you "shot" it with the aluminum breech block, was there a bullet in the barrel and did you have the breech block secure so it wouldn't "bounce" back? I thought the chucks on those lathes had a 2" hole. That should be plenty big for that barrel. Maybe it is getting stuck in the spindle?
    Jedediah Morse
    "To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them.".







  10. #230
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by Traffer View Post
    It can easily be an open bolt style gun. Much simpler than installing a firing pin. What did you use to ream the chamber? When you "shot" it with the aluminum breech block, was there a bullet in the barrel and did you have the breech block secure so it wouldn't "bounce" back? I thought the chucks on those lathes had a 2" hole. That should be plenty big for that barrel. Maybe it is getting stuck in the spindle?
    I did not ream the chamber, this was with the .22 caliber power loads that I previous had. I used the highest power that I had which normally causes extraction problems with the firearms that I've tested it in so far. No extraction problem from the Remington 514 barrel -- I could remove the brass from the chamber easily with a fingernail grabbing the edge of it.

    I was using a 55gr bullet in the barrel for the test. It was seated about an inch deep. I had nothing to keep the "breech block" secure, just the inertia of it and the hammer with which I tapped the end of the aluminum rod and my fingers which were holding the end of the aluminum rod to keep it steady when I hit it. I tried another test with just a power load and no bullet to see how light of a hit directly on the primer would still make it fire. I used a small machinists hammer and what I considered a pretty light tap and no "breech block" and it still went off. You really don't need much of a hit to cause the primer to go off even when you are distributing the entire force of the blow around the entire edge of the primer. It might be interesting to create a vertical test rig with the barrel pointing downwards and drop a fixed weight from various heights to see what the minimum height would be in order to set off a rimfire primer when the striking force is distributed across the entire rim of the cartridge.
    When you fill out your income tax forms at the end of the year, look and see how much money you have given the
    government throughout the year. Then, take a moment to ponder -- has the government done $X worth of
    stuff FOR you or TO you this year? I tend to believe the latter...

    Si vis pacem, para bellum -- If you want peace, prepare for war

    "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." -- Barry Goldwater

    Tag Line


  11. #231
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    If you have one of the Chineese 7x10 lathes, your chuck only has about a 5/8 through hole. Your head stock through hole is about .800 so the chuck will limit the size barrel you can work on with the 3 jaw chuck they come with.
    Yeah, that's what I discovered today when I tried to put the barrel in the lathe.
    When you fill out your income tax forms at the end of the year, look and see how much money you have given the
    government throughout the year. Then, take a moment to ponder -- has the government done $X worth of
    stuff FOR you or TO you this year? I tend to believe the latter...

    Si vis pacem, para bellum -- If you want peace, prepare for war

    "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." -- Barry Goldwater

    Tag Line


  12. #232
    Boolit Master
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    I made a similar test stand barrel many years ago using a pinned on tube with a flat faced bolt. I filed the breech end of the barrel so that a nub stood up to take the place of a firing pin. A throttle cable spring from an older model Volkswagon provided the striker power.
    Before that I had also simply rapped the rim with a hammer firing it with no ill effects.

    Slam fire .22 and .32 ACP caliber small game rifles were marketed in Europe long ago, a few found their way to the states. These rifles are way too easily converted to full auto so I guess they are on the BATF do-do list.

    I think H&R once made slamfire .22 rifles, or perhaps it was High Standard. These were single shot with the bolt latching back after every shot.

  13. #233
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    Get a 4 jaw 4" for your lathe. If you have to, you can open the inside of the chuck to your mini lathe head stock through hole and be able to put anything in the lathe that will fit through the headstock. I bought the 14" bed for mine from "Little Machine Shop" which make the little lathe much easier to work with and about doubles the usable length of the bed. I also bought the 5" 4jaw chuck but found it to be so heavy that it sometimes trips the reset just getting things moving. I have done a lot of small projects on my mini and found it to be a very useful machine. Single point threading is a bit of an issue on the mini as there is no back gear and 60 rpm is about as slow as it will turn making pulling out at the end of a cut a bit touchy.
    I'm having very good results with the 256Win chamber adapter, a black #4 load and a 70gr boolit. I won't be working with the 22lr but plan to continue working with the 22mag to see if I can get usable accuracy. Keep up the good work guys, there has to be a way to make this work.

  14. #234
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by Multigunner View Post
    I think H&R once made slamfire .22 rifles, or perhaps it was High Standard. These were single shot with the bolt latching back after every shot.
    Apparently a couple of different manufacturers made open bolt .22s at one time.

    When you fill out your income tax forms at the end of the year, look and see how much money you have given the
    government throughout the year. Then, take a moment to ponder -- has the government done $X worth of
    stuff FOR you or TO you this year? I tend to believe the latter...

    Si vis pacem, para bellum -- If you want peace, prepare for war

    "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." -- Barry Goldwater

    Tag Line


  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    Navyvet
    Get a 4 jaw 4" for your lathe. If you have to, you can open the inside of the chuck to your mini lathe head stock through hole and be able to put anything in the lathe that will fit through the headstock. I bought the 14" bed for mine from "Little Machine Shop" which make the little lathe much easier to work with and about doubles the usable length of the bed. I also bought the 5" 4jaw chuck but found it to be so heavy that it sometimes trips the reset just getting things moving. I have done a lot of small projects on my mini and found it to be a very useful machine. Single point threading is a bit of an issue on the mini as there is no back gear and 60 rpm is about as slow as it will turn making pulling out at the end of a cut a bit touchy.
    I'm having very good results with the 256Win chamber adapter, a black #4 load and a 70gr boolit. I won't be working with the 22lr but plan to continue working with the 22mag to see if I can get usable accuracy. Keep up the good work guys, there has to be a way to make this work.
    Is that 14" in addition to whatever your current bed is measured or does it just replace what you have with 14"? Mine is already a 7x14.
    When you fill out your income tax forms at the end of the year, look and see how much money you have given the
    government throughout the year. Then, take a moment to ponder -- has the government done $X worth of
    stuff FOR you or TO you this year? I tend to believe the latter...

    Si vis pacem, para bellum -- If you want peace, prepare for war

    "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." -- Barry Goldwater

    Tag Line


  16. #236
    Boolit Master
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    It's a 14" bed like yours. I started with a 7x10 but by the time you add the chuck and tail stock there wasn't much space left to work with.

  17. #237
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    It's a 14" bed like yours. I started with a 7x10 but by the time you add the chuck and tail stock there wasn't much space left to work with.
    It would be nice if they could make extension bed, but I can see how that would be difficult to get in perfect alignment with the original bed.
    When you fill out your income tax forms at the end of the year, look and see how much money you have given the
    government throughout the year. Then, take a moment to ponder -- has the government done $X worth of
    stuff FOR you or TO you this year? I tend to believe the latter...

    Si vis pacem, para bellum -- If you want peace, prepare for war

    "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." -- Barry Goldwater

    Tag Line


  18. #238
    Boolit Master
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    I saw pictures of one that someone had grafted a 7x10 bed on the end of a 7x14 bed. He had access to a milling machine which made things a lot easier to get straight. Even then there was a bit of shimming involved.

  19. #239
    Boolit Master
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    I put a 5 inch 3-jaw chuck on my mini lathe, using an adapter from Little Machine Shop. It works fine. LMS also has a 4 inch 3-jaw chuck that has a .87 inch diameter through hole.

    I thought they used to sell a 16 inch replacement bed, but couldn't find it when I looked a few minutes ago.
    ETA: Here it is. http://littlemachineshop.com/product...5000&category=
    Last edited by Tracy; 04-10-2017 at 10:03 AM.

  20. #240
    Boolit Master
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    "Apparently a couple of different manufacturers made open bolt .22s at one time."

    Neat video.

    I saw one of those Marlin open bolt rifles many years ago.
    A guy at the Stock yards had one he wanted to sell. From the looks of it the rifle had been used as a Hog rifle for killing hogs sent to slaughter for decades. It was black with grease and probably had no rifling left, but still worked or so I was told. I did not know till now that it was an open bolt gun.

    The French gun in the video was also made in .32 ACP.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check