.22 rimfire alternative

[NavyVet1959]

With my CZ in 223 remington I play with Lyman 225646 boolits, no gas check, Tumble-lubed using Ben's T/L, over 3.5 grains of W231 and get 22LR performance for a nickle a round-- including the cost of the primers. That's less that what most 22LR cartridges cost these days. That my 22 LR alternative.

I've done similar with Alliant Promo (Red Dot) powder. This experiment is just to see if their is a way to actually use a .22LR firearm and for it to be cheaper than even just buying primers for centerfire loads.

[NavyVet1959]

Well, the 10,000 #1 level (gray) power loads were in the mailbox late this morning. The USPS site said they were delivered yesterday, but I checked late last night and nothing was there. So, either the USPS tracking system was designed by wannabe programmers or the delivery person marked the items as delivered even though he had not delivered them.

The rim looked thinner even to the unaided eye, so I suspected that they might now work in the NAA mini revolver. I loaded one in the cylinder and the cylinder rotated without any resistance, so apparently it is not a power load issue, but rather just that particular brand that I got in the previous eBay auction. This brand is Bostitch -- I'm not sure what the other brand is.

So, went outside to see if it would fire. Fired without a problem. Still have a slight split in the mouth of the case where the case is crimped in the star shape. Not really surprising given how much the brass has to be bent when they have to crimp it completely closed. The splits have never gone further than the start of the bottleneck though. As such, I don't consider it an issue.

[Chev. William]

Definitely good News for You.
The batch of Grade 1 PTL I bought a while back are Boxed and marked "Simpson Strong Tie P22AC1" on the box and "Made in U.S.A. by Winchester" with a 'Super X' head stamp. They measure .6021" Overall Length (using a .0001" resolution Micrometer) and I found hold 1.31 grains of a Flake type Propellant. these are like a Short Shot type of Bottleneck and Star Crimped case.

I am Looking forward to what you report you find is YOUR Grade 1 PTL Dimensions and Average Propellant Charge.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w30wcf]

NavyVet1959,
Please let us know what the head stamp on your No. 1's is.

I did a bit of testing a couple of days ago. I used the No. 2 with .4 grs removed (1.7-.4=1.3grs) to = the charge weight that Chev William (thank you) indicated was in his No.1's. I used a sharpened nail .09" dia. to open the crimp.

With a 40 gr bullet I fired 3 rounds in a 24" barrel and they averaged 1,111 f.p.s. (1094 / 1138 / 1100)

I also fired 3 rounds with the standard No. 2's which averaged 1,369 f.p.s. (1344 / 1308 / 1455!!)
Note the higher velocity of round 3. Whoa!

Maybe I need to weigh the individual No. 2's to try and eliminate any with a titch more powder in them (assuming the cases weigh the same)......

w30wcf

[NavyVet1959]

NavyVet1959,
Please let us know what the head stamp on your No. 1's is.

There is an "H" on the bottom and a circle around it. The bottom and the crimped nose is painted gray.

Maybe I need to weigh the individual No. 2's to try and eliminate any with a titch more powder in them (assuming the cases weigh the same)......

That would also be assuming that the paint on the nose weighs the same.

One thing to note though is that these two loads are just some that I managed to get off of eBay and they were a one-off type of auction. I have not ordered any from the company that I have contacted in China, so I do not know if their dimensions would be acceptable in the tight fitting NAA cylinder. From talking with their US representative, it seems that they would be open to selling power loads that only have primer and no powder in them and are not crimped.

[w30wcf]

NavyVet1959,

Thank you. "H" is one of the head stamps that Winchester has used. It will be interesting to learn what the powder charge is contained therein.

" From talking with their US representative, it seems that they would be open to selling power loads that only have primer and no powder in them and are not crimped. " If the front portion is not necked down, that would be great.

w30wcf

[NavyVet1959]

If the front portion is not necked down, that would be great.

They make both the necked down and straight products, so that should not be a problem. I'm thinking that it should just be a matter of taking some of the product off the manufacturing line before it get the powder added to it and putting them in the boxes at that point. I've relayed the information concerning the SAAMI max rim thickness and overall length for the case since it's not like you would be wanting to have to trim the length of cases that have already been primed.

[Chev. William]

NavyVet1959,
For Specifications of cartridge dimensions for use in China, I would suggest referring to CIP Standards rather than SAAMI Recommendations.
I am not sure, but I believe China Leans toward following CIP already.

I note that "industrial Cartridges" are listed in "Tab VI" on their web page.
There are several different entries for "22" size ones.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[kopperl]

#2 charge, #4 buckshot and an old Stevens single shot work just fine.

[NavyVet1959]

Well, I went to my reloading "shack' last night and did some testing while listening to the debates. Yeah, I know that is a dangerous thing to do since it makes me want to shoot the TV every time Hitlery come on. It's an old CRT type TV, so no big loss...

The bullet I'm using is the Lee C225-55-RF (.225 Bator). It has been powder coated using the ASBBDT method. It has then been tumble lubed with some cable pull lube and run through the Lee 0.225" sizer.

Installed a bullet in the NAA mini revolver and put a #1 power load in the chamber, but the bullet did not seat deep enough for the power load to go all the way into the chamber. So, I got a small piece of brazing rod and used my arbor press to seat it just a bit deeper. Took the gun out to the garage and shot it into my bullet trap. End result is that it did NOT blow up in my hand.

I think it would be easy enough to create a hand tool like NAA has for their cap and ball mini revolver so that you could have a consistent seating depth each time. Their seater tool is only $7.50, so if it would work for this bullet, that's also a cheap solution.

For the next test, I used the Mini 14 with the Ciener .22LR conversion kit. Because the chamber adapter is made of steel and I didn't want to force the larger .225" bullet down it, I decided to seat the bullet on the end of the chamber adapter instead. The chamber adapter looks like a .223 casing, but with a 3/4" or so chamber extension on the base of the casing that also fills up the receiver and mates with their replacement bolt. Their replacement bolt is shorter than the factory bolt. Normally, you use a set screw to locak the chamber adapter into the receiver. I did not use the set screw so that I could put the bullet in front of the .223 adapter for the testing.



The #1 power load and the Lee 55 gr bullet in the Mini 14 is pretty quiet, but does not completely eject the brass. Since is being seated in front of the .233 chamber adapter, the pressure is probably a bit lower. The #2 load is louder and ejected enough to drop the spent brass into the mag well.

I don't have my chrony set up for , so I can't check velocity.

I also disassembled the two different power loads.

The #1 load (gray) consisted of 1.0gr of a typical charcoal colored flake powder.



The #2 load (brown) was 1.9 gr of a very fine greenish yellow powder.



Photos taken inside and at night and with a cell phone camera, so not the best quality.

Uncrimping the rounds to remove the powder was easy enough. Just took a nail, put it in the drill press, and then while it was rotating, used a file to make it into a long gradual point.

I also disassembled the rounds that didn't fire the other day after the resizing. There were some noticeably larger chunks in there which probably confirms my suspicion that the resizing of the rim caused the primer compound to break apart and away from the rim, causing it to not fire when hit by the hammer.

[Chev. William]

NavyVet1959,
Thank you for that very good data report.

The Flake 'gray' powder seems similar to what I saw but of a more powerful Batch as the Grade Level Power is Specified And controlled by Industry Standards.

The 'Greenish Yellow' powder sounds like one without Coatings to control its Burn Rate nor graphite for ease of Charge Dispensing.

Interesting in and of itself as a Propellant use.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w30wcf]

NavyVet1959,
Thank you for the information & pics. I found some No.1's on eBay today and bought them. They were made by CCI. I'll break a few down and see what the powder looks like and the charge weight.

As Chev William indicated, there are industry standards for the different power levels. The various manufacturers can and do use different powders & charge weights to meet those standards as the comparison between his No. 1's (1.3 grs.) and yours (1.0 grs.) indicates.

w30wcf

[GrayTech]

I measured the rim thickness of 8 .22LR cartridges and 8 .22 power loads. The power loads were definitely thicker. I don't have the measurements handy, but IIRC, it was something like 0.042 vs 0.050. I left the paper that I had written the numbers on over at my reloading "shack'. When I get a chance, I'll get them and update these numbers.

I took a small nut that was just slightly too small for the round to slide into it and drilled it out with a drill bit that was close to the size of the .22 power load. That was too small for the slots in my arbor press, so I took one of my condiment cup ingots and drilled a hole in it so that the nose of the power load could go into it. The ingot was wide enough to bridge the slot in the arbor press. I then used the arbor press to put a bit of pressure on the base of the power load while in this holder and measured it. I didn't want to go too far, so I would give it a nudge and then measure it again. After about three attempts, it was within the range of thicknesses that I had encountered on the .22 LR ammo. When I later tried it out with the NAA mini revolver, the cylinder rotated freely, so it was definitely an issue with that particular brand of power loads with the NAA cylinder. I think the NAA uses pretty tight tolerances on their cylinders though. I've had a similar problem with the .22 mag cylinder with normal .22 mag ammo.

So, I tried firing the reformed power load in the NAA, but no luck. It would not fire even after I rotated it in the chamber multiple times hoping to get a new strike spot under the hammer. I then tried putting one of the unmodified power loads in the .22 mag chamber. It rotated freely, so apparently the rim area on it is recessed just slightly more than the .22LR cylinder. I tried firing it in the .22mag cylinder, but it would not fire. I'm guessing that it is just not getting enough support under the rim to cause the primer to go off. I then took that load and put it in the Ruger Mk-II, but it would not fire either, even though the Ruger had not had a problem with a fresh power load yesterday. I tried a fresh load and it fired without a problem. I'm thinking that the act of the hammer in the NAA hitting the rim in the NAA might knock some of the primer loose if it doesn't set off the primer.



I'm not worried about the weight. It probably wouldn't be any heavier than the old Winchester Model 90 with the thick octagon barrel that I have and I killed a lot of squirrels and crows with it when I was a kid.

Installing a chamber adapter / barrel insert would not qualify as sound suppressor, but if someone was so inclined, I could see how they *could* make an integral sound suppressor out of a 12-gauge barrel with a .22LR insert in it. You could start out with a barrel insert that was 10" or so long, attaching it basically permanently to the 12-gauge barrel. From there, you could create a series baffles and spacers that you could slide into the barrel from the muzzle end. Keep this up until you get to the muzzle end of the barrel. The muzzle end of the barrel could be threaded (either internally or externally) so that you could screw a cap / plug into it that would put pressure on the baffles and spacers to keep them tight. This cap / plug would then have the same diameter hole in the center of it as the baffles did (i.e. for whatever caliber you are converting it to).

At least that would seem like it would work for an internal suppressor from what I've seen of suppressor design on YouTube.



The purpose of this experiment is to find a way for someone to be able to shoot a .22LR firearm for less than the current cost of .22LR ammo AND even less than the cost of centerfire alternatives. If I just wanted a centerfire alternative, I would use my .223 barrel for my Encore and load a couple of grains of Red Dot / Promo in it.

I think when you bump the rim thickness youre breaking the dried ring of primer compound in the rim.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

When I converted 9mm. rimfire shotshells into .32 rimfire I at first dampened the composition for safety, and let it dry out afterwards. That was for safety, but I soon took to doing it dry, with a piece of soft plastic tubing hose-clipped to the die and extending above my head. None ever exploded, and there was a good enough view inside those larger cases to show that none ever fell out. It was a thicker ring of dried compound, of course.But I think dampening would solve any such problem.

Bore erosion can't be much of a problem in a nail gun, as there isn't any real bore. So it could be that the powder has a higher nitroglycerin content than ordinary double-based powders. With some cartridges that would produce accelerated erosion, but I don't believe that would be a problem with such a small amount of powder in a .22.

[NavyVet1959]

I think when you bump the rim thickness youre breaking the dried ring of primer compound in the rim.

Yeah, that's what I was suspecting had happened when I saw a couple of slightly larger yellow chunks in the powder that I dumped from the rounds that would not fire after the resizing of the rim thickness.

On the other hand, the #1 (gray) loads work acceptably in the NAA mini revolver and both the #1 and #2 (brown) loads work in the Mini 14 .22LR chamber adapter. I did some tests with the #1 and #2 loads today with the loads seated about halfway down the chamber adapter instead of on the end of it like I had done previously. Even the #1 was able to clear the barrel and the tight fit of the chamber adapter.

[NavyVet1959]

Well, I remembered to bring back the notes that I had made on the rim thickness on the two brands of power loads.

#1 (gray) -- 0.041 0.037 0.041 0.039 0.038 0.039 0.040 = 0.0392857 avg
#2 (brown) -- 0.047 0.047 0.050 0.047 0.049 0.050 0.049 0.048 = 0.048375 avg

That was enough of a difference that the #2 loads would not allow the NAA mini revolver's cylinder to rotate.

Both work great in the Mini-14 chamber adapter though.

To seat the bullets consistently and allow the depth to be adjusted, I came up with something today. I took a brass 2" #12 machine screw (bolt) and put two nuts on it. If you tighten the nuts against each other (i.e. stop nut), they lock into place and you can use it as a punch to seat the bullet to the same depth in the chamber adapter or cylinder each time.

[Chev. William]

Excellent "Shade Tree" Solution for your bullet seater.
That might work also for my Stevens Favorite And my model 44 rifles.
Thank you for the Idea.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[NavyVet1959]

Excellent "Shade Tree" Solution for your bullet seater.
That might work also for my Stevens Favorite And my model 44 rifles.
Thank you for the Idea.

Apparently the #12 brass machine screws are not that common. Tried Lowes and they didn't have them. Ended up eventually finding them at Sears Hardware, but not any choices in head profile or length. Ended up getting a flat head recessed standard screwdriver head 2" one since that was the only choice. Ideally, I would have preferred a hex head bolt or a machine screw where the bottom of the head was flat (like in the pan head design) so that it could be used for even deeper bullet seating without the nuts, but you gotta work with what is available.

I had considered going with a brass 1/4" bolt, putting it in the drill press, and while it was turning, use a file to decrease the diameter for the portion that would go into the chamber, but that would not allow for an adjustable length. It might be a good solution once you settle on a particular seating depth for all rounds though. You would basically be making a hex head non-threaded pin out of the bolt and cutting / filing down the length of the bolt to your fixed seating depth.

I also took a Forstner bit that was just the size of the cylinder of the NAA mini revolver and drilled a hole / pocket in a short piece of 2x4 board to act as a holder for the cylinder as I placed it in the arbor press.

[w30wcf]

NavyVet1959,
Could you use a fired case to set the bullet?

w30wcf

[NavyVet1959]

NavyVet1959,
Could you use a fired case to set the bullet?

Probably, but if I was trying that, I would probably try filling the fired case with lead to make it a bit more solid.

In my case, I'm setting the bullet a bit deeper than a .22LR would normally be set due to the fact that I'm using a 55 gr bullet.