Should I avoid 'Lee' Loading Dies?

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK: so everyone is on the same page here the "Bore Diameter" is the size of the hole that gets drilled and reamed into the barrel prior to the rifling operation. This dimension is from the top of the land to the top of the land across from it after the rifling is done.

Typically Rifling Grooves are .004-.005 deep. Groove Diameter measured is from the bottom of the groove to the bottom of the groove across from it. This only works right with even numbers of lands a grooves. 3 or 5 grooves is a PITB.

If your bore Dia. on that gun is .450 then the groove diameter should be around .458. Which sounds kind of big to me.

The cylinder throats on a revolver are at the front of the cylinder and are ideally .001 larger than the groove dia. of the barrel.

The boolit would be .000 to.001 larger than the throat. This insures a good seal between the bullet and the throat as it transitions from the cylinder to the forcing cone of the barrel and in turn a good seal of the rifling in the barrel which would prevent blow by of gases and transference of lead to the barrel.

Obviously the best way to ascertain these measurements accurately is by slugging both the Cylinder Throats and the Barrel as it is difficult to get good repeatable reading with Calipers.

Then by using the relationships above you can figure out exactly what you need in the way of a boolit mould.

Hope this helps your understanding of this subject..

Randy

[Oyeboten]

OK: so everyone is on the same page here the "Bore Diameter" is the size of the hole that gets drilled and reamed into the barrel prior to the rifling operation. This dimension is from the top of the land to the top of the land across from it after the rifling is done.

Typically Rifling Grooves are .004-.005 deep. Groove Diameter measured is from the bottom of the groove to the bottom of the groove across from it. This only works right with even numbers of lands a grooves. 3 or 5 grooves is a PITB.

If your bore Dia. on that gun is .450 then the groove diameter should be around .458. Which sounds kind of big to me.

The cylinder throats on a revolver are at the front of the cylinder and are ideally .001 larger than the groove dia. of the barrel.

The boolit would be .000 to.001 larger than the throat. This insures a good seal between the bullet and the throat as it transitions from the cylinder to the forcing cone of the barrel and in turn a good seal of the rifling in the barrel which would prevent blow by of gases and transference of lead to the barrel.

Obviously the best way to ascertain these measurements accurately is by slugging both the Cylinder Throats and the Barrel as it is difficult to get good repeatable reading with Calipers.

Then by using the relationships above you can figure out exactly what you need in the way of a boolit mould.

Hope this helps your understanding of this subject..

Randy

This is a very nice over view of the thing...good mentions.

I feel embarrassed that I was so confused about some of this.

This has turned out to be a very good and useful Thread for me, and for improving my understanding.

Thanks W. R. Buchanan for this excellent summary!

[Oyeboten]

Any advice on how one might measure a 'Slug' from a Barrel which has an odd number ( "five" in this instance ) of Lands, and Grooves?

I have a decent Dial type Verneer Caliper, but no Micrometers as such.

I guess I would make two Slugs, then have them so one's Groove impression is in the other's Land impression as it were, and go from there.

I would like to determine the depth of the Grooves, just to know for sure what they are instead of guessing.

[Wayne Smith]

Whenever I am looking for an unusual set of dies I go to CH4D first. They have the most extensive list of available dies I have ever seen. Check their website, most likely your dies are on their shelf.

[MT Chambers]

My choice in order;
1.) Redding
2.) Forster
3.) RCBS
4.) Hornady
5.) Lyman
6.) Something cobbled up in my garage
7.) Lee

[Oyeboten]

Whenever I am looking for an unusual set of dies I go to CH4D first. They have the most extensive list of available dies I have ever seen. Check their website, most likely your dies are on their shelf.

Thanks! Will do!

At some point I will have decided what diameter my Boolits ought to be for this old .455 S & W, and I can then be in a good position to decide the Dies and or to call and speak with the Manufacturer to find out the Dies' exact size.

[Oyeboten]

My choice in order;
1.) Redding
2.) Forster
3.) RCBS
4.) Hornady
5.) Lyman
6.) Something cobbled up in my garage
7.) Lee

That gave me a good chuckle...

One does not see many Redding Die Sets on ebay...but one does see a LOT of 'Lee' there.

[JohnH]

This guy is using .454 boolits and Lee dies Perhaps you can strike up a conversation with him as he is loading for the cartridge and has experience many of us here can only guess about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQmDnvfm7Hs

[Oyeboten]

This guy is using .454 boolits and Lee dies Perhaps you can strike up a conversation with him as he is loading for the cartridge and has experience many of us here can only guess about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQmDnvfm7Hs

Thank you!

I will watch this and his part II also.

[454PB]

Any advice on how one might measure a 'Slug' from a Barrel which has an odd number ( "five" in this instance ) of Lands, and Grooves?

I have a decent Dial type Verneer Caliper, but no Micrometers as such.


I guess I would make two Slugs, then have them so one's Groove impression is in the other's Land impression as it were, and go from there.

I would like to determine the depth of the Grooves, just to know for sure what they are instead of guessing.

You really need a micrometer for accurate measuring. One method for measuring odd number rifling is to wrap the slug tightly with very thin shim stock (.002"), measure, then subtract .004".

[Oyeboten]

So...if my Barrel's "Groove to Groove" is .455, and the "Land to Land" is .449...

Cylinder Chambers, .457...

Just what diameter flat base, Cast Boolit, should I elect?

Should I send my Barrel off to have it re bored to .456? ( Lol...)

When I Slugged the Barrel, it only took a few easy light taps with a Dead Blow Mallet ( smaller size one ) to push a 250 Grain .454 Wadcutter down flush, then hardly any thing for push wigth a Dowel, to shove the Slug down all the way through.

So, granted, interior Ballistics, things happen quickly, but...this would not seem to be to be something which I would imagine to occasion some nasty or harmful pressure spike...if I were to use .454s.

A .452 would have to upset some ways to ever even reach the 'Groove to Groove' diameter...while inviting nasty 'Blow Bye' ( and maybe Leading ) before it upsets enough.

[454PB]

If the slug went through that easily, it may not have been large enough. The test slug should be large enough to be a very snug fit, if it is undersized, you won't get an accurate measurement. I make my own sizing dies, and to measure the inside diameter, I slug the die. Sometimes this may take 4 or 5 tries as I'm gradually increasing the diameter. I can use the same lead slug over and over by simply placing it in my vice jaws a squeezing it, which increases the diameter.

If all you have is .454" slugs, either use the "vise" method, or even smack the slug with a hammer to increase it's diameter. You should also use some form of lubricant in the barrel and on the slug, any generic gun oil will work.

As to you original question, if the groove diameter is .455" and the throats are .457", size the boolits .457". Since .457" revolver boolit moulds are hard to find, you may need to powder coat or "beagle" your mould.

[mac60]

That gave me a good chuckle...

One does not see many Redding Die Sets on ebay...but one does see a LOT of 'Lee' there.

There are currently 2 pages of used Redding dies listed on ebay and 3 pages of used Lee dies.

[Alvarez Kelly]

There are currently 2 pages of used Redding dies listed on ebay and 3 pages of used Lee dies.

I know there are many ways to search on eBay, but I count 284 used Lee die listings, and 132 used Redding die listings. Whatever that is worth.

[Oyeboten]

There are currently 2 pages of used Redding dies listed on ebay and 3 pages of used Lee dies.

Ohhhh, sorry...my mention was meant to be understood to be in the context of Dies for the .455 Webley Cartridge...even if I had not said so expliticly.

I had looked for Redding Dies for .455 Webley...and off and on, for 9.3x62, also on the ebay.

My search results showed zip for Redding in either of these, but did bring up quite a few Lee Die sets in the .455 and an occasional Lee Die set for the 9.3x62...

[Oyeboten]

If the slug went through that easily, it may not have been large enough. The test slug should be large enough to be a very snug fit, if it is undersized, you won't get an accurate measurement. I make my own sizing dies, and to measure the inside diameter, I slug the die. Sometimes this may take 4 or 5 tries as I'm gradually increasing the diameter. I can use the same lead slug over and over by simply placing it in my vice jaws a squeezing it, which increases the diameter.

If all you have is .454" slugs, either use the "vise" method, or even smack the slug with a hammer to increase it's diameter. You should also use some form of lubricant in the barrel and on the slug, any generic gun oil will work.

As to you original question, if the groove diameter is .455" and the throats are .457", size the boolits .457". Since .457" revolver boolit moulds are hard to find, you may need to powder coat or "beagle" your mould.

I mushed a few .454 Round Balls so they would be wider...and 'shaved a ring' when pushing those in through the Muzzle.

The earstwhile .454 Wadcuter I tried, no shaved ring, but, it did seem to get a good impress all around.

Once in the Barrel, tapping the Dowel with the palm of my Hand was enough to coax the slug all the way through.

Getting the slightly 'mushed' Round Ball in to the Muzzle, I used a smaller size ( like a D Cell Battery in size ) 'Dead Blow' Hammer, and fairly easy taps, and it was not as much resistence as I had expected somehow.

I did not lube the Bore, but, Bore is super clean and shiney and pretty much 'Mirror' like and likely had some trace of Lube from when I Oiled it a while back.

I might have a line on an actual old 'IDEAL' Mold for the .455 Webely, no lube grooves, goofy looking Bullet, Mold looks to be solid base though and not hollow, but, it is the right shape for what the old Bullets had been, and close to that WWI era.

[No Blue]

There are currently 2 pages of used Redding dies listed on ebay and 3 pages of used Lee dies.

And considering Lee probably sells at a minimum 500 times the number of dies Redding limps to sell, that's a lot of Redding die sellers getting rid of their overpriced stuff. This is where you get the clowns that claim Lee is junk because Redding $100 dies sell used for $40 on Ebay. More than Lee dies do new at $35. Like that is some kind of advantage or something, but then I don't understand Lee haters.

[EDG]

That is a big assumption. You don't know how many dies anyone sells. Your $35 dollar Lee dies often sell for less than $10 on ebay and I have bought the RGB sets for as little as $3.

And considering Lee probably sells at a minimum 500 times the number of dies Redding limps to sell, that's a lot of Redding die sellers getting rid of their overpriced stuff. This is where you get the clowns that claim Lee is junk because Redding $100 dies sell used for $40 on Ebay. More than Lee dies do new at $35. Like that is some kind of advantage or something, but then I don't understand Lee haters.

[Oyeboten]

And considering Lee probably sells at a minimum 500 times the number of dies Redding limps to sell, that's a lot of Redding die sellers getting rid of their overpriced stuff. This is where you get the clowns that claim Lee is junk because Redding $100 dies sell used for $40 on Ebay. More than Lee dies do new at $35. Like that is some kind of advantage or something, but then I don't understand Lee haters.

Some of the Redding Die Sets ( two Die Sets ), in Calibres I am not looking for, the starting bid was $165.00 plus highish shipping.

Doing a few casual look sees, these same sets seem to sell for around $145.00 or so brand new.

That's ebay though, Lol...at least sometimes anyway.

Most of the Lee die Sets I glanced to, in whatever Calibre, are listed on ebay for more than they would be new.

Some of the Lee Die sets on ebay had free shipping, which of course drops the net expense down to a meaningful amount.

"It pays to shop around", as they say...

[Oyeboten]

I had in mind to call Lee this pas week, to ask them about the diameters of their .455 Webley Sets, and, every day I was swamped with Work and new exigencies cropping up and by the time I would get to a little Coffee Break, it was too late to call them, given the time zone difference from here in So Cal, to where ever they are in the east...and now my five googles in a row, I can not even find where they are located, but, it is a couple time zones away anyway.

So, just now I did the 'contact us' message from their Web Site, with my .455 Question.