Should I avoid 'Lee' Loading Dies?

[vintagesportsman]

Lee dies, Lee moulds, Lee handpresses (3) keep me portable and accurate. I have owned others, keep coming back, really like their "neck sizing" dies too - just need to take care of them

[Oyeboten]

Okay, so, I just did some measuring and here is what I found...

Barrel Bore ( ie between the Lands, and there are six Lands and six Grooves ) .450

Cylinder Bores, all running right about an even .457

Good Gracious!!

Well...this will take some thought then...

[Walks]

LEE dies do give value for the money. But it's very little money. That said I do have 3 sets of LEE dies. 44Russ, 32S&W short & 38S&W. There are just for the exp. die & the seat/crimp dies. I only load a few hundred of each a year. So it's not worth buying GOOD dies for that small amount.

That said I do use the bulge buster setup for any cases that come out of a GLOCK. Many thousands of .45ACP, 40S&W/10MM & 9mmPARA (Makarov) die,
Without a single problem.

[JohnH]

Okay, so, I just did some measuring and here is what I found...

Barrel Bore ( ie between the Lands, and there are six Lands and six Grooves ) .450

Cylinder Bores, all running right about an even .457

Good Gracious!!

Well...this will take some thought then...

What does the barrel measure across the grooves? 450 would be correct for a bore. Need groove diameter to know what size boolit will fill the barrel. If we take the experts at their word and your cylinder throats are 457 you will be on a merry search for a mold that drops a 230-250 grain boolit with a diameter of 458. Fun Fun

There were large numbers of Second Hand Ejectors/1917's made in 45 ACP. I have no idea the number made this way, but it is common to find 1917's with cylinders which were bored straight through. They are notoriously inaccurate guns owing to the misfit between the cylinder throat diameter and the bullet diameter, as the cylinder throat would be something on the order of 480, a full 030 over the bullet diameter.

[Oyeboten]

What does the barrel measure across the grooves? 450 would be correct for a bore. Need groove diameter to know what size boolit will fill the barrel. If we take the experts at their word and your cylinder throats are 457 you will be on a merry search for a mold that drops a 230-250 grain boolit with a diameter of 458. Fun Fun

Groove to Groove is .450

I thought "Groove to Groove" was Bore?

Cylinder Bores are all .457

Long ago, wasn't "Land to Land" considered 'Bore'? Or is it still so in England/UK?

Or..?

It's a good thing none of this is confusing..!

Maybe there are .45 70 Gallery Boolit Molds which would work for this? Lol...

There were large numbers of Second Hand Ejectors/1917's made in 45 ACP. I have no idea the number made this way, but it is common to find 1917's with cylinders which were bored straight through. They are notoriously inaccurate guns owing to the misfit between the cylinder throat diameter and the bullet diameter, as the cylinder throat would be something on the order of 480, a full 030 over the bullet diameter.

I do have some m1917 S & Ws, but I had not measured their Cylinder Bores or Barrel Bores.

None are handy now, so, measuring them will have to wait.

I do have a 1937 Brazil Contract S & W in .45 ACP...I could measure that one later today and report in on it...stay tuned...

[Don Fischer]

I'VE got a couple lee collet dies and they are well made and work. aai recently got a three die set of 9mm dies from them. Very nice dies that I'm sure will work but couldn't figure out how to crimp with the. So I ordered the factory crimp die and then someone on here or another sight told me how to do it. DUH! but I think the dies re very well made and have no other problem with them.

[Oyeboten]

Just for fun, I did some measurements of the Barrel Bore and Cylinder Bores of my S & W 2nd Model Hand Ejector "Brazil Contract" circa 1937, in .45 ACP.

Barrel between the Grooves is .448...six Lands, six Grooves.

Cylinder Bores are all a consistent .454

I'd have never imagined there was so much 'squeeze down' with these.

I always imagined the Bore would be Bullet diameter, for some reason...and that the Rifling, the Lands as it were, were all the 'squeeze' one needed.

This is really interesting, and now I feel more confused than ever.

[VinceG]

Lee rifle dies seem better than their pistol dies for loading jacketed bullets. For cast I'd go with Lyman just for their expanding die.

[robg]

Started with Lyman dies now all mine are Lee .just as good as any other at a better price.

[375supermag]

Hi...

I have not had very good experiences with Lee dies, so I now generally avoid them. I am sure others load perfectly acceptable ammunition with them but I am done with Lee dies.

I usually buy RCBS as a first choice with Hornady for my LnL progressive. I have some Redding die sets for things like my .375SuperMag and for removing the "Glock" bulge on some auto pistol rounds. I really like the Hornady taper crimp die as an additional step on auto loading pistol rounds.

The Lee dies I bought many years ago are still here somewhere in a box along with a Lee single-stage and 1000 progressive press. Maybe some day when I am retired I will dig the 1000 out and try to make it work. Nothing like a 1000 to cause high blood pressure and stress levels to skyrocket. Speaking from personal experience...

[454PB]

Think of bore diameter as the diameter of the hole drilled in the barrel. Think of groove diameter as the distance between the bottom of each rifling groove. Assuming rifling of .003", the grove diameter of a .448" bore would be .454" (.003" times two plus .448"). The best way to measure groove diameter is to drill a soft, oversized slug through the barrel. Cylinder bore (throat) size is very important because a boolit that starts out at .454" and is then forced through a .450" diameter is now undersized, prone to leading, and inaccurate.

[Oyeboten]

Think of bore diameter as the diameter of the hole drilled in the barrel. Think of groove diameter as the distance between the bottom of each rifling groove. Assuming rifling of .003", the grove diameter of a .448" bore would be .454" (.003" times two plus .448"). The best way to measure groove diameter is to drill a soft, oversized slug through the barrel. Cylinder bore (throat) size is very important because a boolit that starts out at .454" and is then forced through a .450" diameter is now undersized, prone to leading, and inaccurate.

If my 'Groove to Groove' diameter is .448 ( on the m1917 S & W ), then my Land to Land diameter ( assuming the Lands are .003 tall ) would have to be .442 I think.

Groove to Groove on my S & W ".455 Webley" being .450, if we assume the Lands to be .003 tall, then, my actual Bore proper, would be .444 then.

I did not think to measure this when I had my Verneer Dial Calliper out, but, I can do it later today sometime.

I can 'slug' both of these...I just need to find where I have put my .451 Round Balls and then get a Dowel and Rawhide Mallet, and drive one through each of these Revolver Barrels.

Or I guess I could just load a couple super 'light' Cartridges using the Round Ball and fire it in to some rumpled cloths...maybe just a Primer and like four Grains of BP or something...just enough so the Ball will actually exit the Barrel.

I have been goofed up for years, thinking 'Bore' was the major diameter, or, the 'Groove to Groove' diameter...rather than it being 'Land to Land' diameter.

I just googled this to verify my mistake ~

https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...oove-diameter/

&


http://www.gunnersden.com/1-rifle-barrel-bore-view.gif

[Oyeboten]

If memory serve, my circa 1864 Remington .44 Cap & Ball Revolver...the Cylinder Chambers are all right on the money at .451, and so is the Groove to Groove diameter.

This seemed to me to make perfect sense and to be an elegant compatibility/pairing.

I do not understand why so many Metallic Cartridge Revolvers ( or apparently, various of mine anyway! ) have such over large Cylinder Bores, in relation to their 'Groove to Groove' Barrel diameters.

[Oyeboten]

And so, now, I am feeling vexed and confused about just what size Bullet I ought to be using, for the Cartridges for my erstwhile .455 Chambered S & W 2nd Model HE.

Originally I thought I was going to be using ".455 Boolits/Bullets", now, I do not know what to do!

Choice A) Absurd, massive, Forcing Cone "squeeze" ( of an oversize for the Barrel Bore ) Bullet which properly fits the Cylinder Bores...

Or...

Choice B) Massive Blow Bye and maybe objectionable Leading, using a Bullet/Boolit which is sized to suit the Barrel Bore but which will then be massively undersize for the Cylinder Bores.

Or...

Choice C ) Use the undersize for the Cylinder Bores, Hollow Base, long ogive Bullet, which had been designed for the Revolver way back when, in an attempt to remedy the woes of deplorable Cylinder Bore to Barrel Bore pairing, which woes, ought never have been there to begin with.


If I had a way to do it, I'd be temped to just sleeve the Cylinder Bores to have them suited to a Bore appropriate Bullet/Boolit..!

...oh well...

[reddog81]

I have a 1937 Brazilian and a 1917 S&W. The cylinder throats are both on the large size, but I have found that .452 lead bullets worked better than anything else.

I have many Lee dies and have purchased many RCBS dies off Ebay. Lee dies worked but I have supplemented many of my Lee sets with RCBS expanders purchased individually. Personally I hate the Lee powder through expander dies.

[RogerDat]

if you find you have the whole what size bullet figured out and want to expand the case neck to properly fit the bullet you might look at these from NOE molds. They turn a Lee universal expander which is really a funnel shaped flare into more of a Lyman M die with the neck getting sized and just a touch of flaring at the case mouth for easy bullet insertion. http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=89 If you use the Lee powder through expander die for pistols you would need to adjust it to not expand, just trigger the powder dump, or load powder manually.

Crimp is controlled by depth of case insertion, at least in the straight walled pistol dies from Lee that I have used. I might be a bit twichy to get it exactly right if your case & bullet are not standard size for the die but I would think you could creep down on a decent but mild crimp if you are talking a couple of thousandths difference.

Sizing I bet you are going to work the brass sort of hard if your case expands to fill cylinder that is significantly bigger than sizing die. Like the sloppy headspace for 303 Enfield works the shoulder brass if you run it full length into a sizing die so it keeps getting squished then expanded.

Good luck, that is a neat looking old pistol, be great to have a reloading set up for it.

[454PB]

If I was in your shoes, I wouldn't buy anything until I had "slugged" the barrel to determine groove diameter. If there is a gross mismatch between the groove diameter and cylinder throat diameter, (throats larger than groove diameter) there's not much you can do other than modifying the gun. There are many guns around that have cylinder throats .003" larger than groove diameter that can still be made to shoot, although with some loss of accuracy. If the throats are smaller than the groove diameter, that is fairly easy to correct by reaming.

[EDG]

I feel the same way about Lee expander dies. I have no Lee pistol dies but I have Lee .38-55 and .45-70 dies and I hate both the expander and the seater dies.
I can make the seaters work but they are no the best in the west. The expanders stink for cast bullets.

I have a 1937 Brazilian and a 1917 S&W. The cylinder throats are both on the large size, but I have found that .452 lead bullets worked better than anything else.

I have many Lee dies and have purchased many RCBS dies off Ebay. Lee dies worked but I have supplemented many of my Lee sets with RCBS expanders purchased individually. Personally I hate the Lee powder through expander dies.

[Oyeboten]

If I was in your shoes, I wouldn't buy anything until I had "slugged" the barrel to determine groove diameter. If there is a gross mismatch between the groove diameter and cylinder throat diameter, (throats larger than groove diameter) there's not much you can do other than modifying the gun. There are many guns around that have cylinder throats .003" larger than groove diameter that can still be made to shoot, although with some loss of accuracy. If the throats are smaller than the groove diameter, that is fairly easy to correct by reaming.

Good mentions 454PB..!

Okay, I just slugged the Barrel and also the Cylinder Bores.

I slightly mushed out a .454 Round Ball in a nice even way, for both of these.

Cylinder Bore Slug measures .457 in diameter.

However, in looking at the Slug from the Barrel, I now realize shows five Lands and Grooves, not the 'six' I thought I had originally counted earlier when trying to look in to the end and measure it with my Dial Verneer Caliper.

I do not have any good means of measuring this then, since being an odd number, these impressions are offset.

As far as the Slug, I get .452 if going across from the top of one 'Groove' to the bottom of one 'Land', I guess one would say.

This also leaves me no means of really measuring the depth of the 'Grooves' in the Slug, but, if they are say .003, then, my Barrel Groove to Groove would be about .455, and my Land to Land, about .449.

So, if my Barrel's 'Groove to Groove' is indeed .455, is there any reason I should not use .454 or even .455 pure Lead Boolits?



So, maybe this is really okay enough then.

Thanks for prompting me to finally slug the thing!

One thing I learned with this, is that with a Slug one can surely see how many Lands or Grooves there are, where, looking in to a Shiney Bore with a flashlight or Bore light, one might be liable to mis count them ( or, I was anyway ).

[Oyeboten]

I feel the same way about Lee expander dies. I have no Lee pistol dies but I have Lee .38-55 and .45-70 dies and I hate both the expander and the seater dies.
I can make the seaters work but they are no the best in the west. The expanders stink for cast bullets.

One thing I remember from before I left off with my reloading about five years ago, is that I was having trouble with the .454 Bullets being jammed up in to the Seating/Crimping Die, since the .45 Colt Dies I had were really meant for .452 Bullets. I was not resizing any Cases, or that also would have been a problem.

I did not want to be experiencing that problem again with this Revolver's Cartridges nor with any Cartridges I may be loading in the future, for "older" .45 Colt Revolvers.


One of my New Service Colts in .45 Colt, a .452 Bullet can slide down the Barrel with just about free fall or with being pushed by a Pencil, even though good decent Rifling is present. It is not handy right now for me to 'slug' it, but, I will later on sometime, just to see.