.223-.308 Injection Molded Tips

[rolltide]

I would be in for 1k of each.

Thanks for working on this and opening an opportunity.

[M.A.D]

All going well, i will have them done in about 3-4 weeks time..

[R.Ph. 380]

All going well, i will have them done in about 3-4 weeks time..

When should we be able to order and will you take paypal?

[Faret]

In for 1K.

[M.A.D]

Hey I am looking for tips as well for the .223 and .308. Do you know where in Aust as I am in Melbourne victoria. Then I can go and see the quality as I am going to go through Alibaba for mine.

I would seriously advise against China. You may get a mold for $2000 USD, But make sure the price they quote is not just a tooling fee, and you actually own the mold, and will have it freighted too you with the tips.
You provide the material too them.. You may say you want a specific grade of Delrin or Nylon , and theres very specific grades for these tips. But theres a 95% chance , it wont be molded in what you order. And your 5 US cent tips come apart... You just wasted $7000 USD... Theres no refunds. And factor in freight, import duty, GST and you have to hire a Customs broker now... My advice, find a injection molding shop in Melbourne like Toolcraft or SKP or i can highly recommend Dienamics in Brisbane.. You will probably pay $5-6000 AUS for the mold and on a run of 100,000 probably 6-8 cents each.. And you will have them made from the correct material, your mold wont vanish overnight, you end up with a product that will be built to your specifications, and you're supporting Aussie jobs..

[gitano]

I'm in for 1K. How do we facilitate the order?

Paul

[Valornor]

M.A.D has the capitol invested in the project so I'll let him handle the payments. I would think once he has the tips done already to ship we'll open a new thread and let everyone know. I'm sure he'll let everyone know how he wants to handle the payment and shipping details.

[gitano]

I looked at the drawings. Sumpin's funny somewhere. 0.093" MAX width is DAMN small for a tip for a .308 bullet. Is that dimension correct?

Paul

PS - I just measured 3 tips

Nosler .22 cal, 40-grain = 0.117"
Nosler .30 cal Ballistic Tip = 0.147"
Personally Made ("printed") for 8mm = 0.244"

The ejection punch on my Corbin 8S die is 0.091". Like I said, "sumpin's funny here".

Paul

PPS - And... I'm using jackets with a wall thickness of 0.035". I don't think these will work for me.

However, let's do a little math.

The drawings show a jacket wall thickness of 0.014". Times two, that 0.028". If you run the tip out to 0.093 meplat, that leaves 0.065". That's too small to fit the stub of the extruded point, but let's say the 0.005" is a "crimp". The problem is that that "crimp" doesn't show in the drawings. Sumpin funny.

Paul

[Valornor]

Tips diameters very depending on what they are trying to accomplish. I have some .300Blk Ficcochi brand that had very tiny tips. Where I work we have tips that are near .250 in diameter to .050" in diameter.

You can design a tip to do a variety of things. For example, if I am trying to get certain terminal performance out of a bullet then I may be looking at a meplate of .125" or bigger. Thus I need to design a tip that plugs a .125" hole. Tips can also help to start expansion, and perhaps that's part of the design consideration. The intent behind these tips are just to plug the nose of the bullet. Now if I was a factory I would want to get buy using as many similar components as I can. So instead of producing a whole new tip each time I have a new bullet I am going to set up to use the same tip where ever possible. So a purely target bullet may have the same tip as a similar hunting bullet.

The interference is shown in the second page of the drawing. It is slight. We are talking .0025" per side or .005" total. The shank diameter is .070" and the tip diameter is .065" .The interference fit is shown in both the drawing and the Solidworks CAD model. It's not a crimp, it's designed to be a press fit, since you would't be able to swage this on the press.

I have the Corbin VLD die set for my .308 bullets. I have measure the Meplate at .093".

With a wall thickness of .035" I would assume you are either using tubing jackets or you have some really thick jackets. Even if you got the opening down to .070" then seated a tip you'd have .023" per side of exposed meplate. It would be interesting to test to see if that would be a net gain in BC value, but it would definitely look funny.

[Utah Shooter]

The ejection punch on my Corbin 8S die is 0.091". Like I said, "sumpin's funny here".

Paul

I m confused. Now I am only doing .22 cal bullets but what does the diameter of the punch have do with it? My ejection punch pushes on the meplat for ejection. Does your point form around this punch and does this punch push on the lead with your point die?

[gitano]

Joe Christiansen - The diameter of the ejection punch - and by extension, the hole it slips in - defines the smallest possible "point" you can put on a given bullet. Pressing the bullet farther into the die simply forces the bullet's tip into the ejection rod hole, it doesn't make it smaller.

Valornor - It should be obvious to most at this site that "you can design a tip to do a variety of things". That's kind of stating the obvious. I do not see where you verified the VERY small size of the tips YOU (or M.A.D.) designed. I know of no commercially available "target bullets" OR "hunting bullets" that have plastic tips even nearly as small as you are offering (base diameter of 0.093"). The Nosler .22 cal tip is 125% of the tip you are suggesting for use on a .308 bullet! And let's get some terminology correct here. The largest part of the plastic tip is not the meplat (or Meplate - which isn't a word), it's the base. The smallest part of the tip is the meplat. The meplat of the bullet BEFORE the tip is added should be close to the diameter of the largest part of the tip (the base). After the plastic tip is inserted in the bullet, the TIP of the tip becomes the meplat of the bullet. Per your drawing specs, the meplat on the tip is 0.010". (You have the radius spec'd at 0.005").

With your jacket thickness of 0.014" and a bullet meplat (point of the bullet without plastic tip) of 0.0930", the opening in the meplat of the bullet would be 0.065". Provided that the numbers on your drawings are correct, that's 1.65 millimeters! That's just flat out TINY! For everyone else's sake that might be following this conversation, 0.012" is the width of a line drawn with a FINE tipped mechanical pencil. (An "average" thick human hair is about 0.004" thick.) Draw that on a piece of paper. Now draw a line 5 times that wide. That's the width of the opening in the bullet BEFORE the tenon (which is 0.010" larger in diameter), of this tip is inserted in it. The BASE of this tip that you are offering is less than a 10th of an inch across. That's SMALL.

I'm not "challenging" the guy that built the tip! HE BUILT IT for goodness sake! I'm just trying to reconcile drawings with 'reality'. I'd like to make SURE that the numbers I'm reading from the drawings are correct before I buy a bunch of tips that I don't want. I've been making and buying commercially available "plastic" tips for a couple of years now. I'd LOVE to be able to buy 1000 tips for $40! Trouble is, I've never seen one this small, and I want to make sure there isn't an error in a drawing or something, before I buy. If the bases of the tips are truly 0.093", then so be it. They just won't work for me, regardless of whether my jacket walls are 0.035" or 0.014" or even 0.010" for that matter.

I have to take back the "I've never seen one this small" comment. I have some "special run" Hornady .17 caliber, 17 GRAIN, plastic-tipped bullets that have BASES that small. Other than that one "special order" bullet, I've never seen a tip with a base that small and absolutely not for a .308 caliber bullet! Makes me think/HOPE there is an error in a drawing somewhere. Again, I'd love to get 1000 tips for $40!

Thanks,
Paul

PS - The bases of the Corbin ULD tips for the .284 to .308 caliber bullets are AT LEAST 0.250", or 268% larger than these tips Valornor and M.A.D. are offering. If the numbers from the drawings are correct.

Paul

[Valornor]

Pual, I will remeasure my bullets, the ejection punch and adjust the model as needed. Yes this is a small tip, I know it's a small tip. It's meant to work with the existing .308 cal Point Form die I have. On a previous thread I had several versions of the tip, and I asked for input. Most of the input I received was on shank length and shank design. Not on physical size.

I want to get it right, and I want to make sure it works for as many people as possible. So I will remeasure and double check everything. Obviously I don't want anyone to by something that isn't going to work either. If you have other suggestions or would like to see changes made that would help make these tips more useful to more people, at this point I am all ears. Like I said, I based the design on my needs and looked to adapt it based on the suggestions of others. Unfortunately, I don't know what your experience is, or what your background is so if I came across as condescending I am sorry, it wasn't my intent. Also I have no idea why I like to put an "e" at the end of meplat.

I have attached a picture showing the difference between two tips loaded in 300 BLK. Yes some companies make very small tips. It was a crude measurement but I got .103" on the small tip. These would be about .010" smaller.

[aaronraad]

I would seriously advise against China. You may get a mold for $2000 USD, But make sure the price they quote is not just a tooling fee, and you actually own the mold, and will have it freighted too you with the tips.
You provide the material too them.. You may say you want a specific grade of Delrin or Nylon , and theres very specific grades for these tips. But theres a 95% chance , it wont be molded in what you order. And your 5 US cent tips come apart... You just wasted $7000 USD... Theres no refunds. And factor in freight, import duty, GST and you have to hire a Customs broker now... My advice, find a injection molding shop in Melbourne like Toolcraft or SKP or i can highly recommend Dienamics in Brisbane.. You will probably pay $5-6000 AUS for the mold and on a run of 100,000 probably 6-8 cents each.. And you will have them made from the correct material, your mold wont vanish overnight, you end up with a product that will be built to your specifications, and you're supporting Aussie jobs..

I'll give another tick for Dienamics in Brisbane.

[Utah Shooter]

Joe Christensen - The diameter of the ejection punch - and by extension, the hole it slips in - defines the smallest possible "point" you can put on a given bullet. Pressing the bullet farther into the die simply forces the bullet's tip into the ejection rod hole, it doesn't make it smaller.

Well that is not true in the slightest. If you want to say that the point form punch determines the meplat you are dead wrong. My punch measures at .061 and my meplat measures at .049-.052. You would have to take into account the thickness of the jacket as well into your math. Even if the point travels up the diameter of the ejection rod hole that the punch travels through, the meplat measurement is based off the hole in the hollow point and not the diameter of the punch or outside of jacket, or am I wrong on this?

By the way I just measured the outside diameter of my 53 gr V-Max tip It measures at .104 (I think you are right Valornor in your measurements) at the "base" (or rather the widest part of the tip) if that helps and I just measured the stem of one that i pulled out of a projectile. It actually measures at .089! I would say by their measurements they are just about dead on for .22 cal. Or is sumpin funny?

I gotta say Paul I think you are not thinking this through all the way. Punch diameter has ZERO bearing on meplat unless your punch pushes off of the lead in the bullet. In that case I would either learn how to use my "point" die or send my "point" die back to the manufacturer and ask them to make one that forms the meplat off the diameter of the hole minus the thickness of the jacket multiplied by 2 (as you so nicely pointed out),

[Utah Shooter]

Oh I forgot this one. If you are making a meplat that will be taking a tip then pushing off the lead would be perfectly acceptable. .061 of the ejection punch is clearly smaller than .093 so there is no way around it.

Oh and I just pulled another tip from a hornady 168 gr .30 cal bullet. I bet some may be surprised to find that the diameter of that stem as well was at .089 in diameter. Don't doubt yourself Valornor. I think your measurements are spot on. Of course I could be off on my measurements.

The ejection punch on my Corbin 8S die is 0.091". Like I said, "sumpin's funny here".

Paul

You know this means your meplat should be smaller than the diameter of your punch right? Also a meplat diameter of .091 should be more than capable with your dies. I would say your meplat should be around .080 at least unless you wanted to buy some tips then you should open it up.

[just bill]

just bill: I'll send ya some of my 2k if you wanna try them and it actually works out

Thanks, PM sent, your in box full.
Bill

[gitano]

Thank you, Valornor. Those are indeed small tips. I now fully understand. Unfortunately, those are not useful for me.

At the moment I am working on 8mm bullets that mimic in design the Speer #2005, and #1617. The meplats on those two Speer bullets are 0.130" and 0.117" respectively. However, because my 8mm versions are short and light for caliber, I want to put "plastic" tips on them. Those particular Speer bullets with the large meplats are absolute hammers on BIG GAME, but they also kill the BCs. Putting a tip on them makes significant differences. The meplat on the resulting 8mm bullet is 0.224". Weighing in at just a skosh over 115 grains, they leave the barrel at 3515 f/s. Fast is "good", but that barn door out front slows things down fast, and that diminishes the energy delivered to the game. The untipped bullet has a theoretical BC of 0.165; the tipped one moves up to 0.305. That's almost double. That matters.

SO... I'm looking for a 'plastic' tip that will fit my bullets that has a base of about 0.24". My point die has an 8S ogive. I doubt that "you guys" will get much interest in points for 8mm bullets, but I could make something for a .308 or a .338 'work'. These guys - https://cuttingedgebullets.com/cgi-b...y=TALON_N_LONG sell tips, but they are VERY PROUD of them at over 50 cents a piece before shipping. (And of course they refuse to use the USPS, so shipping to Alaska via UPS or FedEx is absurd.) So, a friend of mine "printed" some on a VERY high-quality 3-D laser printer. Not for 'production', but mostly prototype. One issue is keeping the tip IN THE BULLET. When the bullet hits the lands as it exits the mouth of the case, the inertia of the tip pulls it out of the bullet about 3 out of 4 times. Nogud. So...I'm still looking for a relatively cheap plastic tip to put on my bullets.

I wasn't being snarky, I just thought - hoped - that there might be an error in the dimensions of the drawing.
Here's a picture of my bullet on the left, and the two bullets I'm imitating to the right. The .308 in the middle and the 7mm on the right.


Paul

[seppos]

Would a small dab of locktite do the trick?
Cemical bonding will propably help if it would not hold othervice.

S

[Valornor]

So M.A.D and I have talked about doing a second run of tips for .323-.500 cal bullets. It's kind of tricky making a one size fits all solution, different thicknesses of jackets, different ogive profiles, different sized ejection pins, different sized openings/meplats, different calibers and different functions. Somehow we have to find a balance. A concern I have, is that if I make the tip too large, it might be fine on a .308 cal bullet but no so fine on a .223 cal bullet. Since I know there's a lot of people who get into swaging .223 cal bullets first, I want to be sure they have a tip that is useful to them.

I've got a few irons in the fire, but I'll look at the prints again. If anything tiny tips make it hard for those of us with giant meat paws to work with.

The high cost of tips, and the issue of needing special dies or tooling to install said tips is exactly whats driving this project.

[gitano]

MAN! It's annoying that I am not getting notices of PM OR replies!

Seppos - I tried that - sort of. It's difficult - but not impossible - to get glue of any type to work without a mess or not enough. Too much trouble to stay at that solution too long. I'm not sure about the chemical bonding. Poly to lead - poly doesn't stick to much. I think a good mechanical connection is the best solution.

It's kind of tricky making a one size fits all solution, different thicknesses of jackets, different ogive profiles, different sized ejection pins, different sized openings/meplats, different calibers and different functions.

Yes it is! However, in the world of swaging, I think the 'wiggle room' on has with the size of inserted tips is greater than most other places. Corbin makes is METAL tips in only two sizes that covers a fairly wide range of calibers - .284 to .50. So I don't think you are going to find a "happy medium" for .22 cal and .50 cal. I could be wrong though.

Costs almost always 'drive' our endeavors.

I would like to plant a seed for swagers to give some thought to.
1) A cylinder is a VERY gyroscopically stable form because the center of form and center of mass are superimposed.
2) A cylinder is the most efficient form for delivering energy to a game animal. The full-caliber frontal area does the most "work". (See here for a treatise on "work" - http://thehunterslife.com/forums/sho...t=work+physics)
3) A cylinder has the worst possible aerodynamic characteristics.

If I could have my cake and eat it too, I'd have a cylinder shaped bullet with a BC of a spitzer boat-tail. Unfortunately, unlike the laws of man, the laws of physics can't be broken. We can 'bend' them a little though. Plastic tips are already on the way to 'bending' the rules a little, as they turn what is TRULY a hollow point, into a spitzer. The "hammer effect" of a hollow point is realized with a spitzer form by use of the insert. Here's what I would ask you to consider:

Enlarge that plastic insert to the point where the METAL part of the bullet is essentially a cylinder.

You don't have to go completely to a cylinder. Note how far back down the ogive the printed tip on my bullet extends. That's not an accident. There are damn few free lunches in the world of ammunition manufacture. When you increase the size of the plastic tip, you reduce the weight. I - I KNOW not everyone - LIKE light-for-caliber bullets. (I also like big around and heavy too. "Middle of the road" not so much. ) But for those like me that don't mind losing a little weight (in their bullets as well as their belt-line), BIG plastic tips might be something you could like. I definitely do.

Paul