.223-.308 Injection Molded Tips

[seppos]

A thought came to my mind. Why not cast the tip from some kind of liquid epoxy?
Use cast silicone as mould and make a mold by submerge sharp tipped bullets with same contour that you will be using. When the silicone have dryed up, pull the bullet out and you have mold.
Administer proper amount o epoxy to the bottom of the cavity, and press the open tipped bullet to the mold. If the possible air or exess epoxy is problem, you could press forexample needle thru the mold. Air or exess epoxy would escape from the cavity.
When the epoxy has dried up. Pull the bullet out, and you have epoxy tipped bullet..
Any comments?
Unfortunately i dont have any silicone nor epoxy on hand to experimentjust now, but will defenitely try unless somebody else is quicker..

S

[Valornor]

There is a lot to be said about a wad cutter type bullet. I have seen a few designs where they craft a tip that is more of a windscreen, then a conventional tip. This is often found on artillery shells, but I believe that Federal offer bullets with a snap on windscreen for some of their dangerous game solids.

I'm not much of a velocity fiend, however I have recently been playing around with the Hornady 32 Cal (.312") XTP bullets in 85 and 100gr weights. I was surprised to see they held together when shot from my .303 Brit using 45gr of H335. QuickLOAD estimates muzzle velocity to be about 3050ish. I need to chronoy them to verify. Feeding from the magazine was a bit of an issue but man did they smack the **** out of a AR500 gong. There is a lot to be said about high velocity light weight bullets.

I wouldn't ever try to find one tip to work between .22 and .50. I was thinking .22 to .308 is one size tip and then .323 to .50 would be another size tip. I figure most people, including myself, swage bullets for .22-.308 it just seemed like a logical place to start. I also swage .338 cal for my .338LM and have been using the Corbin tips in those bullets.

I'll put together a model and drawing of a larger tip. Something that will follow your line of thinking. I don't disagree with your line of thinking at all. I just do a different type of shooting then you. I'm a target shooter with a preference for longer ranges. I pay attention more to drag curves, sectional density, and velocity then I do to terminal ballistics.

[gitano]

For my two-cents-worth, that would work just fine, seppos. BUT... And it's a deal-killer for me: Too much effort. If I, or you, could figure out a way to 'gang' some molding together, I'd be interested.

If effort is not an issue, the tips could "easily" be turned on a lathe out of Delrin or the like. (A friend of mine did that for me.) That's just TOO much work for me.

Valornor -

I just do a different type of shooting then you. I'm a target shooter with a preference for longer ranges. I pay attention more to drag curves, sectional density, and velocity then I do to terminal ballistics.

EXACTLY! There's rarely "right" or "wrong" to most ballistic-related stuff, mostly just different applications. One thing that does get my back up is when I'm told that what "you" are doing is "better" than what I'm doing, or that what I'm doing is "unethical". Them's fightin' words to me.

I'll tell you right now... If you make a "Plastic tip" with a base of about 0.24" or so, and sell it for something near the $40/1000 you are selling these for, YOU HAVE A CUSTOMER.

Paul

[just bill]

This is a lot of communication going back and forth. What my enquiring mind wants to know is. With a .308 jacket with a .25 +/- internal radius, my observation is you have to have a type of point forming die that the tip points downwards while forming the point or semi form the point where the insert just fits then continue to completely form the point. From .25 +/- to more or less .09 leaves a large enough gap for the insert to get swallowed up, or are the cores seated to a tight depth. Just trying to wrap my mind around this new to me concept.



Bill

[Valornor]

Gitano, just out of curiosity, what Ogive are you using for you .323 cal bullets and what weight are you thinking of?

Just Bill, I'm trying to understand your question. Are you refering to the gap between the shank of the tip and the top of the core? If so this gap is controlled by your jacket length. I used 1.25" jackets, I am swimming in them from when RCE was clearing them out. So for me to build a 168gr .308 bullet that's what the dimension would be. In which case I am relying on the fit between the tip and the jacket to hold the tip in place. Shortening up the jacket would let you rest the base of the tip on the core which would be of some benefit.

If you really wanted to get creative you could have a punch form a cavity in the core so when you pressed the tip in the shank would fit nicely into that cavity. Ultimately that's the proper way to do it. I don't think you could swage these tips in place. The pressure would crush/deform the tip.

[seppos]

About the silicone mold. You could make bigger mold. Lets say, 20 or even 50 by having enough silicone and bullets. Maybe put the bullets in used cartridge box tray and put the mold box over it. Then turn it upside down, and fill the mold box to proper level with silicone. The bullet noses touch the bottom of the mold box creating the "bleed holes". After the silicone has cured, just remove the tray and bullets. And voila`, you have the gang mold.

S

[gitano]

Bill - I understand you completely because I have had to deal with exactly what you are referring to. In answer to your question; "Yes". The picture below shows my bullets point-swaged "just a little bit", enough to hold the tip, but still open enough to allow the tenon to be 'grabbed' by the jacket when the point is fully formed.


And then finished:



Valornor -

If you really wanted to get creative you could have a punch form a cavity in the core so when you pressed the tip in the shank would fit nicely into that cavity.

Which is precisely what I do. I made a custom core seating punch with the right profile to accept and 'grab on to' the tenon of the tip.


I have an 8s ogive point-forming die, and I am interested in keeping finished weight to 135 grains or less. Preferably to about 125 grains.

seppos - You come up with it, and I'll use it!

Paul

[gitano]

While those tips look to be a bit 'shy' of the edge of the jacket, that's optical illusion. Here's a finished bullet.


And here's one of my bullets with the $1 each Cutting Edge tips applied:


Paul

[gitano]

Joe Christensen - I can see you've got your mind made up, so let's not argue.

I THINK the difference between what you are saying and what I am saying is "terminology", rather than reality. I THINK you are calling the "hole" the meplat, discounting the wall-thickenss of the jacket. If so, that is incorrect. The meplat of a bullet, by definition, is the widest diameter of the nose of a bullet point, including the jacket wall. Usually this part of the bullet is "flat", but even in a point that is rounded, the meplat is the diameter of the rounded tip of the bullet. If the bullet is a true OPEN point, the meplat dimension includes the wall thickness.

I suppose one might be able to finesse a stroke that would just extend the jacket walls into the ejection hole and not actually form to the diameter of the hole, but I don't see that happening with consistency. The stroke could be that consistent, but the jackets would have to 1) have PERFECT and INVARIANT wall thicknesses, and 2) they would have to have EXACTLY the same thickening for EVERY jacket as they were swaged from bullet to bullet. That is not possible to imagine as realistic. There ARE ejection rods that have had their tips FORMED so that when the bullet tip actually engages the rod, the ROD actually forms a smaller tip/meplat. I do not have one of those.

If I have your misunderstood your comments, and you assert that one can swage metal into a hole and have it come out smaller than the hole, then we just have to agree to disagree.

Paul

[just bill]

gitano, I have a way of over thinking and over engineering most everything I do.with the focus on a .09 tip of the swaged jacket I was thinking that the tip may be snapped into the jacket, however I didn't think it would take the impact without having to been pressed into the jacket. Although I did see where Cutting edge snaps into there bullets. When this all comes together we will see how it all plays out.
Bill

[M.A.D]

Buy the time your epoxy has gone off for 50, ive injected molded 150,000 tips , But for the home based person for making them for personal use, its a great idea.
Id use a casting resin like Task 4, its not the strongest, but its designed for precision casting with minimal shrinkage. Good luck and post photos when done.

S[/QUOTE]

[seppos]

Also one note about the bonding.
Might be vice to swab the nose cavity of the bullet with cotton swab and asetone to remove the swaging lube before you use the epoxy.

S

[just bill]

Gitano, PM sent.
Bill

[Valornor]

Revised design. I did some thinking, increased tip size. Here is the latest print. I'm sending the tip print to M.A.D so he can get started on the molds.

224-5.56 and 308-7.62 Tipped Bullets.PDF
Tip 8s .120 Meplate.PDF

[gitano]

Nice to see an increase in the base diameter, but still a little small for me by about half. But...

This thread has inspired me to get back to the idea. Cast Boolits will be on the "early list" of notification if I can pull off what I have in mind. As a general rule, the more people tell me I can't do something that I'm pretty sure I CAN do, the more focused I get. I have recently purchased some very nice .308 jackets that make EXCELLENT 8mm bullets! An "Everyman" plastic bullet tip is now a goal!

Paul

[Valornor]

Yeah I needed to get this print off to M.A.D. I have a few irons in the fire but I can put together a tip print more inline with what you would like. I just haven't had much time.

[gitano]

Well, I sincerely appreciate the attention to something I'm interested in, but please, don't go to any extra effort on my account. I understand fully what you guys are up to and applaud all efforts to make a product for the shooting community and specifically the swaging community that facilitates The Common Man's ability to participate in what is becoming more a "gentleman's activity", (AKA MONIED), on a daily basis.

Paul

[M.A.D]

Well, I sincerely appreciate the attention to something I'm interested in, but please, don't go to any extra effort on my account. I understand fully what you guys are up to and applaud all efforts to make a product for the shooting community and specifically the swaging community that facilitates The Common Man's ability to participate in what is becoming more a "gentleman's activity", (AKA MONIED), on a daily basis.

Paul

I need a tip for my 375 VLD's, 458 VLD's and 510 VLD's One of those tips will probably suit you.

[M.A.D]

Will be making the mold over the next two weekends... Will post photos once done..