.38 Special cast bullet in 9 mm

[buckshotshoey]

Im working on something and would like some input. I did a forum search and did learn a few things.
Have a big box of cast bullets for Dads .38 special. Want to try them in my 9mm.

No idea who cast them. Plain box with .38/.357 158 grain written on box.

Heres what i have so far.....

My P89 slugged at .356
I usually shoot 147 TMJ with 700X powder, set to 1.115" col.

The cast bullets measure in at .357 to .358
Average weight with lube.... 152.87 grains. Definitely not 158gr as written.

These casts are a bit longer then the TMJ's.......
TMJ .648"
Cast .676"

I made up a dummy and set bullet so base is not taking up any more case capacity then the TMJ. So obviously
the COL is a bit longer at 1.145". They are well below the max COL and the dummy chambers well in the P89.
Im thinking of setting a bit longer because the cast is a flat base, and the TMJ has a bit of a concave base. The concave gives an extra milliliter or two case volume.

I figure on using the 147 starting load, or a bit less to start with.
Is there anything any of you can offer for me to think about before I load them up?



The crimp groove sticks up out of case. shouldnt be a problem. Using good taper crimp.

[Outpost75]

The SWCs seated out like that probably will not chamber in your 9mm pistol. They might fit in a 9mm REVOLVER IF the cylinder throats run larger than usual, but most 9mm revolvers have tight cylinder throats.

Deep seating a heavy bullet into a 9mm case will DANGEROUSLY raise pressure.

Lacking specific 158-grain data I would NOT improvise.

In a strong Ruger 9mm REVOLVER I load 155-158-grain bullets using .38 S&W (not Special) data, typically 2.5 grains of Bullseye for a light plinking load which works well for cowboy style steel targets at close range.

In a 9mm autopistol I use 3.0 grains of Bullseye with 155-grain LFN bullets seated to 1.10" OAL. YOUR mileage may vary!!!!

I would increase that charge only if needed to get the gun to cycle, not more than a few 0.1 grain at a time.

[buckshotshoey]

The SWCs seated out like that probably will not chamber in your 9mm pistol. They might fit in a 9mm REVOLVER IF the cylinder throats run larger than usual, but most 9mm revolvers have tight cylinder throats.

Deep seating a heavy bullet into a 9mm case will DANGEROUSLY raise pressure.

Lacking specific 158-grain data I would NOT improvise.

In a strong Ruger 9mm REVOLVER I load 155-158-grain bullets using .38 S&W (not Special) data, typically 2.5 grains of Bullseye for a light plinking load which works well for cowboy style steel targets at close range.

In a 9mm autopistol I use 3.0 grains of Bullseye with 155-grain LFN bullets seated to 1.10" OAL. YOUR mileage may vary!!!!

I would increase that charge only if needed to get the gun to cycle, not more than a few 0.1 grain at a time.

Thanks for the reply, but note that my COL is below max, the dummy chambers well in the P89 (no rifling marks), and I did not deep seat. The bullet base is the same depth as the TMJ so case volume has not changed.

[reddog81]

152 vs. 147 grains isn't really the problem, but fit in the magazine, feeding into the chamber, and having the round go fully into battery are all likely problems. I don't anything about P89's but most 9mm's would choke on that round.

[35remington]

Now to answer the question of it it feeds......and, most importantly, how it feeds.

When testing normally ill suited bullets in auto loading arms, periodically remove an autoloaded round from the chamber to check for shortening of the round in the feeding cycle. Do this with rounds autoloaded from the top and bottom of the magazine. It may make for an interesting project. The blunt edges mean more impact of the round during the feeding cycle which challenges cartridge OAL integrity.

I must say if these rounds do in fact chamber your pistol has a very oddly long throat and it is unexpected.

These sorta take 9mm out of its niche and make it resemble a 38 wheelgun in a contradictory sort of way, as it holds lots more ammo but likely has less accuracy.

[MT Gianni]

If it seats without any rifling marks it is too small in diameter for the barrel and may give you leading problems.

[dverna]

If you start with min loads for the 147 9mm you should be safe.

Pull a few of the .358 bullets after you seat and taper crimp them. They will likely be less the .358

35Rem makes a very valid point. Check the OAL after the rounds have fed out of the magazine. If the bullet is driven back, that will cause higher pressure. You can crimp them more if that is the case. And that added crimp pressure will size the bullet down a tad. You should be able to press the bullet of a loaded round firmly against the edge of a bench and not see the bullet move.

BTW, seating the bullet deeper is not a show stopper. Yes, pressure will go up, but you can reduce the powder charge by say 1.5 gr and work your way up until the action cycles while looking for signs of pressure. The Federal primers have the softest cups and will show primer deformation caused by pressure the soonest.

Keep us posted. If this bullet feeds reliably, it should improve the terminal ballistics of a cast 9mm bullet.

[Mk42gunner]

This does bear some thinking about since the projectile weight is more than is normally used in the cartridge, although the same thing could be said about the 147 JHP thirty years ago.

As you say, you are under the max oal, but the difference may be accounted for by the lack of a round nose.

I would continue by making a magazine full of dummies, and making sure they all hand cycle through the action. Check that the boolits aren't being seated deeper by the loading ramp.

I have never used 700X powder, but I would start low, and stop at reliable gun function. If all goes well, then enjoy my fifteen shot .38 Special equivalent; which is what I have always thought the 147 grain 9mm load was anyway.

Good luck and be careful, This is one of the times you should pay attention to the old saying of "Make haste slowly."

Robert

[buckshotshoey]

152 vs. 147 grains isn't really the problem, but fit in the magazine, feeding into the chamber, and having the round go fully into battery are all likely problems. I don't anything about P89's but most 9mm's would choke on that round.

Fits magazine well. OAL shorter then maximum. Feeds into chamber fully. Chambered it several times and no change in seating depth or any marks on ogive.

Now to answer the question of it it feeds......and, most importantly, how it feeds.

When testing normally ill suited bullets in auto loading arms, periodically remove an autoloaded round from the chamber to check for shortening of the round in the feeding cycle. Do this with rounds autoloaded from the top and bottom of the magazine. It may make for an interesting project. The blunt edges mean more impact of the round during the feeding cycle which challenges cartridge OAL integrity.

I must say if these rounds do in fact chamber your pistol has a very oddly long throat and it is unexpected.


These sorta take 9mm out of its niche and make it resemble a 38 wheelgun in a contradictory sort of way, as it holds lots more ammo but likely has less accuracy.

It is a weird project but worth a try. Thats why i want everybodys input. It does chamber fully into battery. After a dozen chambers, same dummy over and over, there was no change in seating depth. And no marks on bullet, aside from a few marks on the nose from the feed ramp. The OAL is below max and it wont hit rifling while in chamber. Will add the 38 cast bullets are only .028" longer then the 147 gr TMJ's.

If it seats without any rifling marks it is too small in diameter for the barrel and may give you leading problems.

I was referring to the bullet will not engage the rifling while in chamber. I used one of these bullets to slug the barrel. Bullets are .357 - .358. Grooves in barrel are .356

[35remington]

Not so much interested in what a dummy does when hand chambered repeatedly. Better info to come when actually shooting it.

Examine the first round fed from the full magazine under live fire after retrieving from the chamber. Racking from a single round in the magazine not the same test but you'll find out soon enough at the range.

Be sure you also plunk test with the barrel out on a new dummy. Maybe you already did that and I missed it. Could be hand racking into an assembled pistol chamber is covering up fit issues or maybe it's fine. Barrel out and you're sure.

[buckshotshoey]

Not so much interested in what a dummy does when hand chambered repeatedly. Better info to come when actually shooting it.

Examine the first round fed from the full magazine under live fire after retrieving from the chamber. Racking from a single round in the magazine not the same test but you'll find out soon enough at the range.

Be sure you also plunk test with the barrel out on a new dummy. Maybe you already did that and I missed it. Could be hand racking into an assembled pistol chamber is covering up fit issues or maybe it's fine. Barrel out and you're sure.

Good advice. Will do the live fire test with 2 rounds. Will check length of next chambered round.
That is a ways off yet. Doing this slowly.
And i will remove barrel and plunk test. Didnt do that. Thanks.


Update....... Dropped and measured the dummy and several of my other reloads, as well as new rounds. All within a thousandth or two. The .38 SWC drop right in, headspaced on the case mouth, and drop right out. Cant tell a difference between these and new rounds. My reloads were more consistent but i keep them trimmed to a consistent length.

[runfiverun]

go for it.
start low and come up.
the rugers will feed just about anything upside down or sideways anyway so you got nothing to lose.
I wouldn't use titegroup.

[buckshotshoey]

Also of interest... this is actually what gave me the idea to begin with. This is in the Lyman 44th edition, printed 1967.

[buckshotshoey]

Upon further research, I think the bullets I have are Lyman 150's, not the 158's that is written on the box.
I will work these out and get back to you in a week or two. I really think this will work.

Lyman 150 SWC


The 158 nose is even with the crimping groove.
The 150 is narrower.

Lyman 158 SWC

[Oyeboten]

I used to load 158 Grain .357 Semi Wadcutters for my Colt Model 1902 Sporting Model Automatic.

I kept these as a light loading for Paper Target use.

Worked perfectly.

This was a long time ago, and of course no loading data for anything like that was available, or not to me anyway.

So, I was using 'Unique' and I just started super low, test firing stright down in to a Bucker of dry Sand with a Tee Shirt stretched over it.

Once the Slide would cycle in the straight down position, I inceased the Powder some really tiny bit more, then stopped "there", and that loading ( I forget now how many Grains it was other than "light" ) was wonderful, easy on the Pistol, and very consistent out to fifty yards, which was as far as I was shooting.

Heavier Semi Wadcutters for 9mm P '08 Chamberings would definitely be a fun thing to work out.

Same of course for 9mm Largo.

[GWM]

Your project seems reasonable enough. I have been using all kinds of boolits in the SIG P226 up to at least 160 gn and of every configuration. The most common problem has been leading with softer alloys.

[gwpercle]

Oh yes, I've given that idea a workout. I had several 38/357 moulds and my Dad had a WWII era Walther P38. I tried Lyman # 358156 with the gas check , 155 grain SWC and Lyman 358477 150 grain, SWC . These two had feeding issues...they were iffy at best. But if chambered they would fire and eject just fine .
Lyman #358345 115 grain SWC and #358432 148 grain button nose wadcutter (not the 160 grain version with the same number) both did much better. The #358345 115 grain SWC did just fine in 9mm . All boolits were sized .357.
Try it...feeding and the tight chambers with little or no throat that new pistols seem to have may be the only problem. Dads P38 had a generous chamber and a throat 1/4 inch long. New chambers end right where the rifling starts...that causes problems with cast boolits.
Gary

[buckshotshoey]

Oh yes, I've given that idea a workout. I had several 38/357 moulds and my Dad had a WWII era Walther P38. I tried Lyman # 358156 with the gas check , 155 grain SWC and Lyman 358477 150 grain, SWC . These two had feeding issues...they were iffy at best. But if chambered they would fire and eject just fine .
Lyman #358345 115 grain SWC and #358432 148 grain button nose wadcutter (not the 160 grain version with the same number) both did much better. The #358345 115 grain SWC did just fine in 9mm . All boolits were sized .357.
Try it...feeding and the tight chambers with little or no throat that new pistols seem to have may be the only problem. Dads P38 had a generous chamber and a throat 1/4 inch long. New chambers end right where the rifling starts...that causes problems with cast boolits.
Gary

Thanks. Im pretty sure i have the 358477 150 gr. Will keep that in mind.

[AJG]

If you are carefull you should be fine loading 38 spl lead bullets in 9mm Luger.

I use 9mm Luger lead bullets in 38 spl (deep seated to 0.100" from flush. See the thread of TheGuyFromSouthamerica). My cast bullets are nominal .356" as Lee states and are the 124 grain Lee Truncated Cone TL molds. The bullets have an Diameter as cast of .356" to .362". I do not size them and use them "as cast".
I use animal marker wax sticks brand Raidl Raidex from Hauptner&Herberholz made in Germany as bullet lube. I do not get leading.
This deep seated .356" bullets in the 38 spl case have the Performance of an 9mm Luger and must have about 35000 psi as pressure. Therefore they can be shot ONLY in 357 Magnum guns.
These are my experiences with this set up.
I use 3.0 to 3.1 grains of 700X type scavenged shotgun powder behind this 124 grain lead bullet and that cycles the semi Auto pistol (S&W SD9VE) reliably.
I bet you could use 2.0 grains of Bullseye for your pistol to get it cycling reliable for this 158 grain lead bullet.

[AJG]

I have the same Lyman 44th Edition reloading Manual in pdf. Very usefull Edition and even better in some ways than the new ones.