I'm not sure about the exact order of the Spitzer, but I do know that the US Government had to pay a couple of hundred thousand dollars to the German firm of DWM for patent infringements on the Spitzer design. Those payments were made after the Great War so the US ended up paying the Germans for shooting German designed bullets at Germans. Go figure!Originally Posted by Wayne Smith
Those Spitzer payments were in addition to payments to Mauser for charger design patent problems.
Last edited by Scharfschuetze; 10-06-2016 at 05:58 PM.
Keep your powder dry,
Scharf
As I recall, the round or cartridge was called a "Tround." Most of the shooting magazines had articles about the weapon when it was introduced. Even at a young age, I was rather underwhelmed with the idea.Dardick triangular... er... thing.
Another weapon that made a splash about the same time as the Dardick was the Gyroget. It was actually a small rocket fired from a handgun and if memory serves, a carbine too.
Both died fast and total deaths. Wonder if that's in store for the new army ammo.
Last edited by Scharfschuetze; 10-06-2016 at 01:03 PM.
Keep your powder dry,
Scharf
I thought that was a round figure rounded for the general public. Higher than present velocities would also carry a heavy penalty in barrel life, the way military weapons are designed and used nowadays.
The Gyrojet gun failed because it had poor accuracy. it actually worked really well. But the little bullet rockets tended to go all over the place. There was no way to get the rocket thrust to be stable and keep the little bullets on course.
Yes, they used angled rocket vents or ports to rotate the rocket. The rockets did not have enough thrust to force the projectile through conventional rifling. Unfortunately for the concept, acceleration was rather slow, so the little rockets were unstable until they hit their full velocity and rotational spin somewhere downrange.
Keep your powder dry,
Scharf
50 years ago Popular Mechanics had us all flying around in personal VTOL aircraft that got 400 mpg in 5 years...
They do not deal with reality very often, or very well.
Neither does our Government or military....(from a disabled Marine)
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The limited accuracy was something many would have considered acceptable for massive power in a light, flat pistol with minimal recoil. The other well documented snag was that like any other rocket it had to accelerate once it was in motion. It could be very powerful at medium range, but administer very little more than a sharp poke at the muzzle, which does happen sometimes in self-defence. I don't believe there is anything in international law against hitting someone with an unexpended rocket propellant, which with the Gyrojet was extremely momentary. But it might still have made surrender awkward.
"Popular Mechanics" gets it right quite a bit of the time. An eBay standing search, after blank years, got me Major Bagnold's desert exploration and sun compass in the 1930s. (He was the first commander of the WW2 Long Range Desert Groups, and lived to become a genuine scientist and consultant to NASA on the sands of Mars.)
In WW1 Churchill's Land Ships Committee were getting nowhere with ideas like Pedrail flapped wheels, and making their whole tank into one gigantic wheel. Then somebody went around the bookshops in Charing Cross Road (where the movie "84 Charing Cross Road" was set), and found an old copy with details of the American caterpillar tractors. Col. REB Crompton, who had been in trenches in the Crimea in 1854 and in 1878 founded the company whose name is on my lathe and milling machine motors, said "I know where we can get one. I've seen it working in the Rotherhithe marshes."
Science would discover a lot less if it had to be right all the time.
Last edited by Ballistics in Scotland; 10-07-2016 at 03:08 AM. Reason: 185
I think that if the true exploits of Waverly and Bagnolds were fully known the history of the North African theatre of war would have to be rewritten
The Bird of Time has but a little way
To fly-and Lo! the bird is on the wing
The Army definitely needs something more powerful than the anemic 5.56. Why not just go with a product-improved M1A?
Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA-Life, ARTCA, American Legion, & the South Cuyahoga Gun Club.
Caveat Emptor: Do not trust Cavery Grips/American Gripz/Prestige Grips/Stealth Grips from Clayton, NC. He will rip you off.
Well, up to a point... Bagnold's exploits as an explorer, certainly. But while he was superseded as commander of the Long Range Desert Groups for genuine health groups, I don't think he had quite the right piratical instincts for that job. Colonel Peniakoff did, despite originally having been rejected by all three British services for age, waistline, blood pressure and neutrality. There is a famous photograph of Popski driving his jeep around St. Mark's Square in Venice (you might have to think about that for a moment), with the split hook which had replaced his hand less than a year earlier.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popski%27s_Private_Army
Popski considered the LRDG far superior to the SAS at that time and that style of warfare. The only known picture of the issue sun compass in use is on one of their trucks, and although very laid-back and macho they look, the compass is back to front.
In the late 70s I was stranded for a few hours in the old airport of Amman in Jordan, and went to buy some fruit in a corner shop outside. The shopkeeper started talking to me about the Scottish regiments of the British army, ending up with "The Buffs, English but not bad. Their march was written by Handel!" It emerged that he had been chosen for the Transjordanian Long Range Desert Group, but Rommel was out of the desert business before they completed training.
I wonder if the gyrojet round would work better now than it did back then? Back then it was probably at the edge of technology, could probably do way better today and actually make them work.
Accuracy, possibly. Fin-stabilized projectiles have been well tested since then in artillery, and I think they would be more consistent than angled jets. Also the Gyrojet missiles don't look unduly long, and there is no compelling reason why a rocket can't be stabilized by rifling. Base-bleed shells, to reduce drag, are part-way there already.
It is the lack of velocity at the muzzle that I think would be an irresoluble problem.
if the entire case was consumed when the round was fired they could get enough gas volume to blow a fireball about 8' in front of the barrel.
I seriously doubt the government wants another round they have the 6.8 spc and the 6.5 Grendel which were both developed for the upgrade in ammo the troops want.
they could also just go to the 300 BO with 120gr bullets.
it's not like they couldn't just do something right now and have what they want in field tested and proven rounds.
I would imagine technology has come along enough that most issues could be resolved. Carbon fiber was near magic when the gyrojet was being made. Cad and machine tech has changed alot. Some sort of pop out fins or even get the angled ports right. Muzzle velocity would generally remain an issue. With the angle jets, it requires a sustained burn to spin, so a slow steady acceleration would remain. A rocket launcher is basically blasted out of the tube, with no residual acceleration. But would have considerable recoil without a backblast.
Funny how it works, somebody tries an idea like the gyrojet, doesnt work at the time due to the limits of available technology, but is rarely ever tried again as 'it was tried and failed before'. Not sure about those old trounds, was it just lack of sales, didn't work good? I remember those plastic cased rounds at one time, but weren't around long.
But why waste $$ when Marines are so cheap.....! Feel the ❤️ love!
Semper Fi!
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Spot on. Military Intelligence in full display here. They're reinventing one of the best rifle cartridges ever developed, which withered on the vine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.280_British
"Military Intelligence" = Oxymoron! Seven years in the Corps I never saw any! It was, "There's the right way, the wrong way, & the Marine Corps way!" I always took the right way, to my detriment of course! Had a permanent bullseye on my back! Punished repeatedly for doing the right things.
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An American 7mm round actually preceded the 280 British and would have had similar ballistics. In fact, the .276 Pedersen was John Garand's chosen round for the M1 rifle, but General of the Army MacArthur, due to millions of left over 30/06 rounds from WWI, nixed it and made Garand redesign the M1 for the Ought-Six. That's why the M1 uses an 8 shot clip and not the original 10 shot clip envisioned by John Garand using the .276.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.276_Pedersen
Keep your powder dry,
Scharf
And one of the main reasons I decided that converting my M1 Garand to 7x57 would be okay with the big guy upstairs as it was the original bullet size desired by the designer.
I Cast my Boolits, Therefore I am Happy.
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