Titan ReloadingRepackboxMidSouth Shooters SupplyRotoMetals2
WidenersReloading EverythingLee PrecisionLoad Data
Inline Fabrication
Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 154

Thread: The saga of cast boolets in 222 Remington.

  1. #81
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,620
    This is some very good work, Castalot. I've been wanting/thinking about making up a small caliber that I can load and shoot cheaper than .22 LR's currently go for. You've made me wonder if I might not be able to do that with a larger case than I'd anticipated now. And we gun nuts are never so pleased as when we're totally perplexed as to what to do or build next, so ..... THANKS! You've made my plan just that much more complex, and I now have more basis for my vascillating! As with the old saying, I'm "happy as a dead pig in the sunshine!"

  2. #82
    Boolit Master Oklahoma Rebel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    outside of Sand Springs, N.E. OK
    Posts
    2,353
    yup, I look forward to hearing more of...The Saga Of Cast Boolits In 222 Remington!
    An armed man in a citizen.
    An unarmed man is a subject.
    A disarmed man is a slave.

  3. #83
    Banned

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    28,088
    here is how I approach workups like your doing.
    I start with the fastest powder and get my best from it.
    then I move to the next slowest powder using my ending data and move ahead and continue on down the line.
    in the 45 colt and 44 mag [24" lever guns] I have concurrent data starting with clay's and moving all the way up to 1600 fps with 2400.
    I have tested data for them using bulls-eye, clay's, 700-x, red-dot, green-dot, titegroup, unique, herco, sr-4756, 800-x, steel, AA#-9, AA-4100, and 2400. [plus 1-2 more I'm forgetting]
    all of the data is with 165gr RNFP's, 200swc's both at the lower speeds, 225 RNFP's, and 250gr RNFP's in the 45.
    and 200-240-240-240-250-255gr boolits in the 44. [yes I marked 240gr three times, I used 2 plain base RNFP molds and a gas checked SWC type]

  4. #84
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southern Illinois
    Posts
    2,352
    A little bit of fun before I start the day....

    1 pound of WW = 7000 grains

    divide that by 39 grains for each boolet = 179 boolets for each pound

    1 pound costing o.25 divided 179 boolets = .0014 each or ~7 for a penny

    1 pound costing about $1.25 divided by 179 = .006 each or ~1.5 for a penny

    20 pounds (pot full) of metal = 20 times 179 = 3580 boolets

    3500 Nosler dogtown bullets @ 0.13 each ( not counting delivery) = $465.40

    I've finally found a job where I can make $500.00 a day and work from home! WooHoo!

  5. #85
    Banned

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    28,088
    dang! I was gonna sit and stuff envelopes.
    but saving 500$ a day not doing that would make me rich in a hurry.

  6. #86
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southern Illinois
    Posts
    2,352
    Another quick day at the range....

    That arsenal load at 2150 fps was tested into water

    Tested it today at 39 yards...

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	15 feb 2017 expansion 010.jpg 
Views:	57 
Size:	25.1 KB 
ID:	188169

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	15 feb 2017 expansion 011.jpg 
Views:	60 
Size:	28.3 KB 
ID:	188170

    It's difficult to tell them apart....

    Tested the 61 grain load over the chrono with 6.7 grains of Unique...1773 and 1761 FPS...the other 2 were error...

    Remember to use book loads...not mine...
    Last edited by castalott; 02-16-2017 at 12:02 AM.

  7. #87
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,620
    Castalot, this has been a VERY interesting thread! You've now got me wondering if I really want to get a smaller case to duplicate everything from .22 pellet guns to .22 mag. and maybe Hornet level performance. We gun nuts are never so "happy" as when we're totally wrapped up in the question "what's the next caliber I want to try, and why?" I'm near ready to just get a .222 and be done with it. It'd be so much easier, and maybe even a little less espensive! Figuring out the next move will always be a poser, I guess?

  8. #88
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southern Illinois
    Posts
    2,352
    I was surprised that the expansion was nearly the same for 10 and 39 yards. If all I wanted was a short range hunting load, the 45 NOE WFN bullet would be my choice. If I wanted the varmint hot rod bullet, the Arsenal 40 grain ( Actually weighs 38 something in WW) at .226 (or .227) would be my choice. I ordered mine at .224 and it was exactly that with the mystery metal I had on hand.

    I have a theory that the lead the lands displace has to go somewhere and the diameter of the bullet swells to fill the bore. Nothing more than a theory now...just guessing.. The coating adds a little but not much.

    I haven't got the pin point loads with the 40 grainer yet but I do think they are doable. I've got to redo my bench set up. I hate to buy a machine rest but testing will never be uniform until I do.

    The best reloader/shooter/caster I ever knew pulled his hair out back in the 90s trying to get a Hornet to shoot cast. He had a couple of the Lyman 2 cavity molds and ran straight Lino with GCs. What he could do one day couldn't be repeated the next. But he got killed before he gave completely gave up 10 years later.

    Like you, I wanted a Hornet. Or maybe a 222... Ray asked me which won the most bench rest competitions and that decided it for me. Having cast rifle bullets forever but never 22s, I knew the Hornet would work but the 222 would be easier.

    If I ever get this 22 stuff figured out I may still have a Hornet. There is a mystic about it... the tiny cartridge with the big punch and the low cost to feed. The days of the shooters in the Depression using it because it worked...and cheaply too!

    The next thing to try for 22 replacement will be a Marlin 32-20. There are several molds available with hollow points to try. Seems a waste of lead if this 222 will do good....

    Dale

  9. #89
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,620
    Yes, the little Hornet CAN vary widely, but from what I've read by fellows who were in a position to know and measure stuff, it's the chamber dimensions that often at lest, contribute to the Hornet's variable results. I keep thinking of a shortened version of the K-Hornet, with @ 1.000" shortened case length, and decently long neck for the Lyman 225415. That's as heavy a bullet as I'd want to use in it. I'd likely go with a 14" twist, though 16" would likely be enough. 224" groove dia. barrel. My little Rem. 580 action keeps crying out for me to do something with it. I think it's starting to hate me. Have had it a very long time, bought it with a broken stock, and need to do SOMETHING with it. Had thought about getting a slow twist barrel and making it into a .22 Short single shot for squirrel and bullfrogs, but now that .22's of ANY kind and especially Shorts are so hard to come by, and so "spendy" (IMO) when you DO find them, I'm leaning more and more to a more versatile centerfire, that will barely sip at lead and powder.

    So your work with the .222 has really intrigued me, and made me have to think very hard about what I THINK I want. Love those little CZ 527's, too. Not sure which version I want. those "perch belly" Euro styled stocks look a bit "strange" to me, but every one I've ever shouldered fit me VERY well. I'm a chronic vascillator in matters like these, so it's nothing new to me to find myself in a quandry about what to do next. Your thread here has me really re-thinking .... AGAIN .... what I think I want. And the .222 would definitely spike the top end, if I ever wanted/needed to use that facility. It'd take a bit more powder in a .222 to get the same velocity as might be obtained in a smaller case, and the smaller case would have the advantage of higher powder density, which tends to aid uniform ignition, but ..... your .222 has surely shown some very neat capabilities, and offers more top end as well. That ain't a bad place to be!

    And BTW, a friend of mine's grandkids started out hunting deer with a .22 Hornet, and they were both really good shots. They never lost a deer, and used their little Hornet to take close to 20 now, I believe it is. The older one has moved up to a .243 because she's fully capable of taking a deer at well over 300 yds. She's proven it on targets. They've begun using the all copper Barnes HP's, and they've been opeing up nicely at the under 100 yd. ranges they've shot them at. All heart/lung shots, and most DRT, and none went further than 40 yds. after being hit with that little Hornet. Folks think it takes SO much to kill a deer, but it really doesn't, IF you use a bullet that will reliably reach the vitals, upsets rapidly, and is placed right. Most folks have a hard time getting to a range TO practice, and often rely on the Tim the Toolman's "MORE POWER" theory, but it never seems to work out well. The ONLY way to learn to shoot, is to shoot. Very simple. But for those who can't or don't have time to shoot enough, they could at least practice letting the hammer drop without the crosshairs moving at home, even on the kitchen table. This would help them place their bullets SO much!

    Every night hunter I ever talked with used .22's, as much because of the noise factor (and not wanting to be caught) as for their effectiveness. The ones who could shoot, and place their bullets well, always ate a lot of venison. So all these guys who use a .300 mag. to hunt deer kind'a make me wince. I don't enjoy recoil as much as I once truly did. Made me feel like I was shooting a REAL gun. Now? I'm a lot less appreciative of recoil. That also adds to my desire for a neat, quiet little round that I can plink around with without concern about getting more ammo, and that I can reload and experiment with at various velocity levels, and just play around with just for the heck of it.

    You've really got me revamping and reconsidering my options! Thanks!

  10. #90
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southern Illinois
    Posts
    2,352
    Ray will be over Sunday for a day of shooting...look for a bunch of pictures next week...

    Ray had to cancel...his wife had some trouble & she comes first..as it should be....Get well soon, Mrs Ray!!!
    Last edited by castalott; 02-19-2017 at 10:42 PM.

  11. #91
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Wilmington NC
    Posts
    1,441
    Ok castalott (and all of you others cheering him on), now you have gone and done it. That long unused 10" octgon 222 contender barrel just got put on the list for a new mold (or two, or three).

    I have been playing with "22 LR" replacement stuff in 30 & 32 cal. The "new technology" of BLL for mild and PC for wild has made lube grooves "not required". Without lube grooves, a wannabe metal worker like me can dabble in mold making. Current results include:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	60 - 309.jpg 
Views:	39 
Size:	39.4 KB 
ID:	188382Click image for larger version. 

Name:	89 - 32 long.jpg 
Views:	32 
Size:	26.9 KB 
ID:	188383Click image for larger version. 

Name:	110 - 327.jpg 
Views:	34 
Size:	21.3 KB 
ID:	188384

    I got started cutting a cavity today. I will post more photos after I make a some more progress.
    Last edited by P Flados; 02-18-2017 at 11:19 PM.

  12. #92
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southern Illinois
    Posts
    2,352
    Cool! Welcome to the madness...

    Dale

  13. #93
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southern Illinois
    Posts
    2,352
    P Flados... Here are a few of the bullets I have to play with....time is the short part.Click image for larger version. 

Name:	30 cal bullets to try 004.jpg 
Views:	49 
Size:	30.4 KB 
ID:	188477

    Some of these are from the reject pile...

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	30 cal bullets to try 007.jpg 
Views:	46 
Size:	31.2 KB 
ID:	188478

    If I ever get time and the energy...and get the 222 project finished...

  14. #94
    Banned

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    28,088
    I'm sure the statute of limitations has run out on this so I can tell just how little it takes to kill a deer.

    my best friend growing up drew a Bull ELK tag in south central Utah and he knew if he got one he would need help getting it out.
    so he gives me a call and say's we are going elk hunting.
    I had no tag but I did have a pellet rifle for grouse hunting so away we went.
    we got into the edge of a good clearing and was watching some elk feed towards us through the trees.
    when suddenly a group of deer come trotting up through the clearing about 20yds away going right past us and were heading towards the Elk.
    Wes say's they are gonna spook them Elk.
    I said no i'll turn them, and took aim at the ribs of the front Doe with the pump up pellet rifle..
    pop.
    jump and drop.
    and she rolls over 4 feet in the air dead.
    oh jezus, now what do we do.

    this is the same pellet rifle I used when we used to run around and shoot each other with them in the park at night.

  15. #95
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Wilmington NC
    Posts
    1,441
    Here is my new toy. The front cavity is a 110 grn for my 327, the back cavity turned out to be 46 grs with a diameter of 0.226 min, 0.2275 max (I do not expect any problems from the slight egg shape).

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20170219_150806317.jpg 
Views:	44 
Size:	40.2 KB 
ID:	188479

    Ok, turns out a new boolit was just the start of what I needed to work on.

    First off I do not have a working sizer die. Fat was ok by me until I tried to test seat a bullet. First attempt was with about half of the full diameter portion out of the case. Slap it in the barrely and no-go.

    Took a boolet and drove it part way into the rifling and then pushed it back out. Turns out this barrel was one of the contender barrels made in the day when TC was willing to put out sad excuses for chambers. The portion of the chamber in front of the neck had a square edged transition to a very short region of leade (no throat to speak of). The boolit I drove half way in was clearly shaving lead at the squared off edge.

    Took a piece of 1/4 diameter aluminum rod, beveled the end at say 20° made a bushing to run it through, and started lapping the square edge away. Kept working at it until a boolit driven half into the rifling would smoothly size itself down and engage the rifling.

    Back to test seating. With the full diameter portion of the booit half in the neck, the case was still an 1/8" away from seating. As I tried to seat it deeper, the amount of force was very high. Pull the case out of the die and the neck was collapsed.

    Time to make a custom expander rod. Took a 1/4" steel rod, worked 1.5" down to 3/16", threaded this portion to 10-32, swapped it around and made a very long straight taper expander region starting at 0.220" going up to 0.250". Tried it and it worked great. With the neck just opened up to get the bullets started, it seats with a nice light but reasonable amount of force. I adjusted the seating die so that the bootil lightly engraves into the bevel I lapped into the chamber.

    Then I mounted a scope on the barrel and put the barrel on a gun. I now have gun, boolit and loading gear ready to go.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20170219_201815177.jpg 
Views:	32 
Size:	36.2 KB 
ID:	188481

    I am waiting on the BLL to dry before I load up my first batch.

    I only have a couple of dozen 222, so I tried converting 223 (I have a gallon or so once fired range pickup with no gun in 223). One pass in the 222 sizer did not even come close to working. I tryied to cobble together a series of step down sizers. No luck yet. Will keep trying.
    Last edited by P Flados; 02-20-2017 at 11:54 PM.

  16. #96
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southern Illinois
    Posts
    2,352
    Wow... I was trying to size the bullet to fit the chamber...You are sizing the chamber to fit the bullet. I have often considered machining a 'leade' into the rifling just as you describe.

    Also, with this 'leade' you are well on your way IF you wanted to pre-seat a bullet in the rifling and add a powdered case behind it. A brass punch machined to fit the bullet base on one end with an adjustable stop on the other to engage the barrel end would work with a plastic hammer. I would think such a system would shoot wonderfully.

    I cannot recommend the Lyman M die in 22 highly enough. Every bullet so far is perfectly guided into the case. And held straight and true. If you have copied it, I commend you.

    This going to get interesting fast....

    Dale

  17. #97
    In Remembrance w30wcf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Erie, PA
    Posts
    1,604
    castalott,
    As Blackwater said.... "A very interesting thread".
    Yes indeed! Nice bullet expansion pics! Back when I was more actively playing with cast in the .22 Hornet I worked with different alloys and found that, interestingly, Lyman 225438 & NEI 45 bullets in air cooled w.w. with 2% tin added (14BHN) shot very well at 2,600 f.p.s. with good accuracy. The low .13 sectional density of the 45 gr. bullets made that possible. (Harder bullets shot no better.)

    Later on I decided to see how fast softer 20/1 lead/tin (9 BHN) bullets could be pushed and still retain accuracy....surprisingly....almost 2,400 f.p.s. I shot a few groundhogs with those and they put the "lights out" pretty quickly with center mass shots.

    I have a pic of the expanded 225415 20/1 bullet here someplace. As I recall, at approx., 2200 f.p.s. impact velocity , the bullet was almost completely flat with the base of the bullet pretty much flush with the back. No wonder it was so terminally effective!

    Found the pic


    Eventually, I wanted to try some softer 50/1 lead tin bullets which would be the approx. hardness of .22 l. r. bullets (5.5 bhn) to see what velocity could be achieved with those, but I got onto other things and never did try that experiment. My thought was if 2000 f.p.s. could be achieved with accuracy (1800 f.p.s. impact), perhaps bullet expansion would be as great as the 20/1 at the higher velocity....

    w30wcf
    Last edited by w30wcf; 02-20-2017 at 10:53 AM.
    aka w44wcf
    aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
    aka John Kort
    NRA Life Member
    .22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F. Cartridge Historian

  18. #98
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southern Illinois
    Posts
    2,352
    w30wcf just proved my point. I knew there were many who have already figured this out. He did it back in 1992! We do have a different technology available to us today with the wondrous mold makers and the no lube groove needed lubes/coatings. Don't forget the Web where we can share what we learn and learn as we share.

    And the idea that P Flados can modify a chamber leade to be cast friendly is simply amazing. I have often wondered if the chamber throat should be a mirror image bullet profile. He can now test this concept for us all.....



  19. #99
    Banned

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    28,088
    a mirror image is the way to go.
    most of the cast boolit bench rest guy's have bump dies.
    these bump dies are cut with the throat reamer right after the chamber throat is cut.
    so they cast to near throat shape, weight sort, then swage to final shape before loading.

  20. #100
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southern Illinois
    Posts
    2,352
    Oh... A thought that eludes me at times... These groups improved using the Lee neck sizer. I used to think " That's just silly." But it wasn't the use of the Lee die that was silly. It was me!

    I have several 22 LR rifles that shoot wonderful. But I'm thinking this 222 will outshoot them all and with more power and range.

    That remains to be seen... testing will continue...


    Several posts back, Jared drew a .225 bullet that lingers in my mind. A goal is to have a bullet that requires no sizing.... As soon as I get back to work I'll probably have to have one. Who knew shooting these 'needle blasters' would be so much fun...
    Last edited by castalott; 02-20-2017 at 10:26 PM. Reason: can't write a coherent sentence

Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check