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Thread: The saga of cast boolets in 222 Remington.

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    Jared at 'Arsenal' is going to draw up a boolet like the sized one but with the un-sized boolet's lube groove on it. As of now, we are shooting for a diameter of .225. Looks like about 1/2 the nose will be groove diameter. I would like everyone's opinion here.

    I suspect this design will have much in common with a wad-cutter gyroscopically and aerodynamically. Will it be limited to a short range, low velocity (22LR) life?

    Hhmm... I might give up 75 yards to have a 'bug hole shooter' at 50.....


    I didn't realize shooting these needle-blasters could get in your blood...
    Last edited by castalott; 09-27-2016 at 09:01 PM.

  2. #22
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    hopefully the front half
    the saeco 60 gr boolit is a good one to steal ideas from.
    when I drew up the HM-2 I basically mated the rcbs 55 and the saeco 60 to come up with the starting shape then put in the measurements and shapes I mentioned earlier.

  3. #23
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    How do I do a pdf so it can be seen here?

    Jared has 2 drawings & I was curious what you guys thought...

  4. #24
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    you basically just have to do an upload as a pdf [attachment] then we click on it to open it.

  5. #25
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    Castalott(s) requested design
    Attached Files Attached Files

  6. #26
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    thank's JHess.
    I like the overall shape but that front drive band area is your critical area.
    it needs to mimic the throat angles a bit better.
    sloping in from 225ish to 219ish at about a 30* angle would help everything [drive bands] snuggle right up to the end of the ball seat area and still allow the nose to settle into the rifling.
    I know the 222 has a ton of neck to work with and your boolit is taking advantage of that pretty well.
    you just need to match the rifles angles a bit better in that one area.
    that will allow you to get away with a softer alloy which will work better at the lower velocity's.

  7. #27
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    Well, actually I am to blame for the nose shape. I'm sorry but I really don't understand what you were trying to tell Jared. Would you try again for this simple country boy. Thanks, runfiverun!

    Oh, Thanks Jared!

    Dale

  8. #28
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    I've been thinking about it ( whew!) .... The nose as designed won't self align in the bore? You are saying there needs to be an angled step down to groove diameter ( actually .220 or so) so the nose will align on top of the grooves? This will put the outside diameter (.225) up next to the forcing cone ( not a revolver but this is the only way I know to describe it)?

    So you would load it ( OAL) so the nose section engraved- centering the boolet?

    I'm not arguing ... I'm asking to learn...

    Am I understanding this correctly?


    Thanks, Dale
    Last edited by castalott; 10-08-2016 at 03:51 PM.

  9. #29
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    that's a great nose shape for a lever gun.

    what I'm talking about is avoiding the harsh 90* angle and sloping the drive band towards the nose.
    http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_deta...=31-165A-D.png

    this one is cut for the 308, you can see how the front drive band angles inwards and allows everything to snuggle up against the end of the ball seat area.
    scroll down to the chamber picture and you'll see how the front drive band of the boolit mimics that angle.
    http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...Winchester.pdf

    someone drew up the 165-A for their Armalite AR-30 in 308 and pushes ww alloy to 2400 fps without any drama.
    I use a slow powder for a gentle launch and the boolit takes care of it's own alignment.
    actually helps pull the case into the centerline of the barrel by using the drive band diameter and the nose diameter to align everything at the front.
    the closer to the centerline of the barrel you can get the boolit to start with the less damage you do to it under acceleration and the more accuracy you'll garner from it.

    anyway when you hear someone say fitment it doesn't mean cram an oversized boolit in there and hope for the best.
    compare those 2 pictures and you'll see what fitment truly is.
    now that I brought up fitment there are 2 types.
    mechanical and static.
    mechanical is the close fit before the boolit is fired.
    static is the boolit either maintaining that shape to the muzzle or it actually slumping rearwards unevenly=bad
    evenly=good.
    pre-slumping the design to combat that happening is best, that allows you to ride out the mechanical fitment and accelerate the boolit with minimal damage and what damage does occur doesn't affect the balance of the boolit once it's free of the barrel.

    I hope all of this is making sense to you.

  10. #30
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    remember we are talking bolt action or single shot rifles here.
    a semi-auto is another discussion because the two systems work differently.
    and a boolit that relies only on mechanical fitment will also have a different shape and a different alloy requirement since it is spending all it's time fighting the slump affect.

  11. #31
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    I did plan to use soft lead ( pure with enough tin to cast...) with these loads. I wanted ( and have gotten) expansion. I also wanted this to be a load at 22 LR speed. It wouldn't bother me if it would work great to 1500 FPS or so.... I was hoping the big meplat and soft lead would be great in the field or on garden patrol.

    I am still working on understanding exactly what you are telling me. Give me a little while...

    Thanks, Dale

    You were talking of lever guns, I have a friend actively pursuing a 218 Bee.... maybe this design would be good for it?

  12. #32
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    I'd have to look at it's throat design.

    now don't get me wrong here.
    your design is still feasible but you almost have to do a mock up of how your nose is going to interface with your throat.[at least a drawing on paper]
    that will help you see what your dealing with.
    if you had a short 5.56 type throat and the base of the boolit was still in the case mouth at the time of initial contact I think your design would work very well.

    http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...0Remington.pdf

    here is your 222 Remington
    you have that quick 45* angle right in front of the case mouth
    and then a 3* leade in angle.
    with a 219 diameter groove.
    so a 219 nose section that angles back towards the drive band at 3* then an angled front half of the front drive band that mimics that 45* angle would nestle right in the throat.
    even if that was set back near the case mouth and was run up into the barrel it all would help pull the boolit into the barrel when it got there.
    instead of it looking for the barrel at whatever angle it happened to be heading towards it, it would just align with it by using the drive band and the nose as a guide.
    basically take the 165-A above and cut it off at the back of the front long drive band and then chop the nose off about 1/8th" in front of the drive band and roll it off with like a 2-3R or a tangent angled nose into the meplat.
    that would give you a good idea of what your looking at.

  13. #33
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    I've been thinking about this... This boolet isn't just for one cartridge but many...including a 218 Bee. Which lube groove would you recommend and why? I have even considered no lube groove... I sure like the way they fall out of the mold and simple inspection... I can tell you HiTek doesn't lead so far...

    Dale

  14. #34
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    I like one single strong squareish lube groove.
    the more lead you have taking the rifling the better.
    slope the band angles into the groove at about 30-35* and it will drop free.
    it will also hold soft or hard lube better.

    isn't this designing stuff fun?
    you have to take into account what the boolit could be used for so you have to look at many different pictures and try to account for the throat condition of them too.
    then the neck length of the case comes into play, add in a short case neck and you have to move the lube grooves placement.
    throw in a gas check shank.
    then your COG is too far forward so you move the nose back.
    pretty soon you got the rcbs 0-55s when you started with a blunt nosed lever gun boolit for your 357.

  15. #35
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    My style is more "blunder into" than "design"...LOL

    Important question... What length boolet would be the best for my velocity range of 1000 FPS to 1600 FPS or ,if lucky, maybe a little more? My 222 has 1 in 14 twist but I don't know about the others.... ( Would I be better with a shorter (35 gr) version or a longer ( 50 gr) version?)


    Thanks Again, Dale

  16. #36
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    shorter will do better.
    40-45grs should do okay, but I would err on the lighter/shorter side and go with 35-40grs.
    you can knock some of that base drive band length off, shorten up the lube groove, and back up the nose to just kind of compact everything.
    I'd start with the nose to keep the weight to the rear.
    and you can always wet up a lube a bit or add some tumble lube to get it down the barrel easy enough.

  17. #37
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    Finally got back to this... I've cast up several of 3 designs...all in WW..

    Noe 46 WFN .228

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    Arsenal Custom 40 grain .225

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    Arsenal 225-61 'Elvis'

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  18. #38
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    Sizing base first or nose first can make a difference...

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  19. #39
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    Of course the bottom one above has 4 extra thin coats of HiTek... I knew this mold was .228 when I ordered it... I'm asking a lot of it and it still is doing good!

    This is the first time I've used straight wheel weights in as long time. I like it! All these molds cast very nice!

  20. #40
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    The possibility of using a centerfire instead of a .22 LR is intriguing to me. When you can get up to 3500 loads from 1 lb. of powder, that should be interesting to a lot of us here. 2 gr. loads in small cases make for some very interesting possibilities and shooting. I've been considering building something on a small action in a CF caliber with very small capacity for just that purpose. Haven't pulled the trigger on it yet, but .... ya' never know. And I really like to know where I'm most likely going, and have some assurance of success, before I go putting money into a unique rifle only I would likely appreciate. You've really got me hyped up for it again. Thanks!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check