Puzzled by Accuracy: BLL vs Stick Lube

[Dimner]

I have been archive searching for a good hour now... various search terms. Most of the information on Tumble lube vs Pan Lubing is about the application, directions, and recipes. I find very little information on the accuracy between BLL and stick lube.

I realize, that each rifle is a law unto itself. I'm trying to get a feel of the general consensus here about accuracy. To give me an idea if I want to invest more time and money into stick lube.

Let me also say, that I have had zero leading (properly sized bullet) with straight ALOX, 50/50 MS/ALOX, BLL, or the 4 different stick lubes that I have tried. I have shot all lubes (except straight ALOX) to up around 2200fps. Again with no leading. All lubes perform (leading, fouling etc) perfectly. Just really bad accuracy for all lubes.. which is understandable because that's a result of the bullet, my rifle and the really fast speed.

When I reduce to typical cast bullet speeds (1700 to 1950fps), I notice accuracy differences between stick lube vs tumble lube using BLL. The stick lubes all perform similar among each other. One generally has a slight .5" group difference. On the other hand, BLL tends to better accuracy. Groupings .75 -1.5" better. Slow down further to around 1600fps both types lubes have the same accuracy. In fact, both types of lubes have the same accuracy from 1050 to 1600fps. Problem being that 1600fps is the around the fastest speed I have gotten a stick lube to work for me with accuracy I can accept. But it's not a velocity I want to accept.

I cannot wrap my head around why this is, and that's where I need help and looking forward to a lively discussion.

Caveat: My tests are no where near extensive. I find a powder that works well, a bullet that does okay, and load them up the same with different types of lubes. I use 3 shots generally to foul the barrel and hopefully remove the last lube. I'm not proclaiming a conclusion. I'm looking for ideas as to why I'm experiencing this.

Useful data:

Rifles I have used where I notice this. Win94 30-30 26" barrel and Springfield 1903a4 30-06.
Bullets used: 311041, 311672, 311316 (I have not tried this bullet past 1500. All lubes did great)
Stick Lubes: NRA 50/50, White Label: BAC, 2500+, Carnauba Red (2500+ seems to edge out the rest)
Stick Lube Application: Finger Lube and size with NOE push through sizer at .311
Tumble Lube: Ben's Liquid Lube, made per instructions in the sticky. 6 bottles of SCJ One Step on hand
Tumble Lube Application: Light tumble application, let dry, size with NOE push through at .311, re-tumble with another light application
Powders:
H335, H4895, BL-C(2) for high velocity 1700+fps
H335, H4895, Unique for medium velocity 1450-1650fps
Trail Boss, Unique, Red Dot, for the lower powered stuff

[runfiverun]

viscosity & friction value of the stick lubes.

[buckshotshoey]

What have you done to play with bullet seating depth? With crimped loads in the lever gun, bullet jump isn't controllable. Well, it is to an extent. Playing with case trim length can be done. Keep the cases as close to maximum length as possible. But what jump to the lands are you using in the Springfield? Also, what is the condition of the throat area?

I have heard of some bolt gun competition guys loading lead boolits with the ogive actually touching the rifling, not that i recommend doing so (a big no no with jacketed boolits even though David Tubb would load some jacketed touching rifling for case forming operations). But load them within .005 to .010in from touching, go back to starting loads, and see what happens. Too big of a jump may be deforming the boolits somewhat, in that particular rifle. Or just pay VERY close attention to getting seating depth consistent. Measure seating depth from the ogive, not the tip, with the Hornady seating depth tool. Worth a try IMO.

[Ben]

10 expert shots firing those same loads may tell you more ?

[Yodogsandman]

So what's the problem? Lube with BLL! It shows just how little good lube we really need on a boolit for best accuracy. The less lube, the less chance of lube effecting your groups negatively.

[dverna]

A number of things to check. First the consistency of your bullets. Weigh then and note the variation. Also are the gas checks seating properly?

Alloy can affect how the bullet reacts when it is punched in rear. There is more force as velocity increases. Slower powders will reduce the initial pressure....4895 should be OK.

How do the guns shoot with jacketed bullets?

[GhostHawk]

Well for my part I mostly keep my loads down in that 1500-1600 range. So far I have been very happy with the Bll. Easy to make, easy to use, I have come to prefer 3 light coats. My bores seem to love the stuff.

I have mostly been playing lately with various ways of adding a bit of carnuba wax to it. Such as heating some Johnson's liquid wax till the flakes disolve, or heating some alox and dropping in a chunk of JPW.

It all seems to work great as long as you keep the percentage down in that 2-3% range.

I like it as it seems less gummy on the loaded rounds, more of a hard shell finish.

Or you can just melt the carnuba wax into the Johnson's one step and end up with a smooth gel like substance. About a pea sized piece for 100 boolits for that third coat worked very well.

If it works I don't sweat it. I get obsessed when it should work and doesn't for some strange reason.

BLL is so good you can even invert the recipe and it still works. IE 60% JOS instead of alox. Brain fart, happens as you age.

Only thing I know is that it works so well, so simple, so inexpensive that I don't ever see me ever even bothering to try PC.

That is 3 rounds with a .358 158 grain plain based round nose boolit above 4.6 grains of Red Dot out of a single shot handi rifle at 50 yards. And it would do the same at 100 if I could hold it.

And I know I am not the only one, I have seen several others just as good if not better.
Hard to argue with success.

[35 shooter]

Lots of variables enter the picture when trying to shoot faster with cast.
In my 35 whelen i had to heat treat my boolits
(ww alloy) to get accuracy above 1900 fps. That alone was a major improvement for me. Switching to Ben's Red lube was another big boost.

Once Ben put the formula out for BLL i tried that and haven't looked back. I use 3 light coats for rifle shooting and get the same great accuracy i get with Ben's Red, even at 2500 fps.
So yes, BLL can equal the best grease lubes for me.

When trying for more speed(or any load and speed), i only change one variable at a time looking for what gives improvement, such as seating depth(i start with boolit just touching the rifling), or only lubing one groove or maybe 2, even with multi groove boolits. As Yodog said above, it's amazing how little of a good lube you really need.
As far as the consensus on accuracy you asked about...for me it's all my shots in 1.5" or less at 100 yds.
(with a scope), or i keep working on the load changing only one variable at a time.

[randyrat]

Too much lube on your bullets with stick lube, reduce the amount of stick lubes by 25% or maybe 50% and watch your accuracy come back at higher speeds.
Runfiverun had it right.

Meant to say above.......
Runfiveeun could have it right.

[Dimner]

Too much lube on your bullets with stick lube, reduce the amount of stick lubes by 25% or maybe 50% and watch your accuracy come back at higher speeds.
Runfiverun had it right.

I bet you are right Randyrat. Looking at my sticklube prepared bullets in 311041, I have the two lube grooves filled and when i size them the lube spreads to the area above the gas check that is recessed. So basically I have 3 grooves worth of lube on these bullets. I'm going to try some out with only the lowest lube groove filled.

To answer some other questions....


1) Yes I have played with bullet seating. I have seated them both in the crimp groove and long enough where the rifle engraves on the bullet nose. No real big difference between the performance.
2) I do not crimp. At least not while trying to find the correct load. When I find a acceptable load, I will test crimping
3) I single load all my shots and bypass the magazine tube during load development.
4) I would continue with BLL, but I am hoping that I can go even faster than BLL with the right stick lube. I would love around 2050fps. But will be just fine with the 1850-1950 range.
5) The Win 94 is okay with jacketed bullets with iron sights. The 1903a4 is great with them and a scope.

[Dimner]

10 expert shots firing those same loads may tell you more ?

I'm not sure I quite understand your comment. I'm no expert at shooting, but I can get great groups with the same rifle setup with just a variation on the lube.

A number of things to check. First the consistency of your bullets. Weigh then and note the variation. Also are the gas checks seating properly?

I do weight and sort my bullets when I am doing load development. Any problems with gas check seating and that bullet goes into the "sighter/bore fouler" category. I only use those bullets when I need something that has nothing to do with shooting groups.

Also, I try and cast my bullets a little fat and squeeze them down to .311. I'm hoping that this adds to a more concentric bullet.

[Ben]

10 expert shots firing those same loads may tell you more ?



I'm not sure I quite understand your comment. I'm no expert at shooting, but I can get great groups with the same rifle setup with just a variation on the lube.
____________________________

I'm just saying that different people firing the same load may offer different results than the same person shooting that load ? ?

Human error. We are all subject to it.
The more individuals used to shoot ( that are good shoots ) the more conclusive data you can gather on the capabilities of your load.

Ben

[Yodogsandman]

I haven't heard that BLL has any high velocity limit. Using 3 thin coats, I know I've had it up to about 2500 FPS in my Mauser 7.62x51 using 41.0 gr W760 and gas checked Lee 309-155-2R boolits. No leading at all and left with a shiney bore!

[RogerDat]

Not directly related to the specific question but for higher velocity why not powder coat?

[Yodogsandman]

Not directly related to the specific question but for higher velocity why not powder coat?

Do a search in the magic white box above using the words "PC" and "accuracy" and come to your own conclusions.

[GhostHawk]

PC works great for pistol, slower speeds, often a little larger caliber. Lower pressure, short barrel.

I have seen people ask for true 1 MOA accuracy at 100 yards with an impartial observer with pc.
I have seen people discuss it, if it is or is not possible.

I have seen people try to claim it, generally if you dig into that claim you find out the impartial observer was a brother in law or some such and the distance was questionable at best.

Now all of the above is not intended to put anyone down, or to make any statements. I simply have not seen the proof.

I think Smoke came the closest, but to be honest I pretty much quit reading PC threads after I discovered just how well BLL works, how easy it is to make and use.

Myself and others have also found that a THIN coating of Ben's Red followed by a thin coating of BLL is if possible even more foolproof. Don't ask me why, I don't do rocket science and lube chemistry is harder.

So I have a lube that is inexpensive, quick and easy to make, quick and easy to use, leaves my bores shiny sparkling. And if everything else in the load is right has no leading. If your boollit is too small or your load too hot don't blame the BLL.

So why should I even read PC threads?

That does not mean I hold my PC'ing brothers in any less regard. Different strokes for different folks. There is no wrong way that works.

I don't want to start any wars or feuds here. Your mileage may indeed vary.
In about two and a half years I have been using BLL I have yet to empty my first Johnsons one step can. I have 5 more waiting in the wings and 4 40z bottles of Lee Alox. That will last me for a while.

But don't take my word for it. Take a proven good load, take 100 boolits, split them fairly, PC half, BLL half. Then go test 10 shot group vs 10 shot group same rifle, same day, same conditions. Remove all the variables possible. Be honest.

Then make up your own mind which works better for you.

[Ben]

If I was selling either lube ( which I AM NOT ! ), I could understand someone being skeptical about anything I say about the lubes.

However, I now have seen people all over the world who have made the lubes, used them , and have very positive things to say about them.

I'm very glad that so many of you have had positive experiences with Ben's Red and Ben's Liquid Lube ( BLL ) !

Thanks,
Ben

[Dimner]

If I was selling either lube ( which I AM NOT ! ), I could understand someone being skeptical about anything I say about the lubes.

However, I now have seen people all over the world who have made the lubes, used them , and have very positive things to say about them.

I'm very glad that so many of you have had positive experiences with Ben's Red and Ben's Liquid Lube ( BLL ) !

Thanks,
Ben

Ben,

You BLL is excellent. Which is why I have 6 or something like that of the floor shine on hand I probably should have realized when I started playing with stick lube, that there really wasn't any room for improvement. I had a shiny bore and more than acceptable groups Problem is that my OCD has a hard enough time leaving well enough alone. Then it came to the point that I coudlnt get stick lubes to even perform as good as BLL. That screamed to me that I was the one doing something wrong. I'll test it this weekend. But I think it was that I was putting far too much lube on the boolit.

Anyway, It's getting really close to hunting season, so I need to nail down a load for deer season. So BLL is the clear winner. While I have your attention, have you noticed any reports of BLL with problems in the temps of 25-55 degrees? I did some searching in your T/L thread and it looks like it's fine down to 20 degrees. Not sure if you have heard anything else. I don't mind a cold barrel flyer at 1", that is fine for the first shot on a deer.

[runfiverun]

the lube on the boolit doesn't cause the first shot flyer.
it's the condition of what's in your barrel that does it.

you might want to read the 'lube quest' sticky, it leads down a whole bunch of rabbit holes and shows some results on different lubes [temp group size etc.] and the break down of many of lubes components. and what controls what.
the testing still hasn't stopped it's just slowed down since most of the participants just flat got burned out or have too many variables left to test.

the amount of lube applied really doesn't matter that much what matters is how/when the carrier releases the oils and what those oils are doing when they are released.
it shows some of the old stand byes as pretty good lubes within certain temperature windows and why modifying them or their release of their oils or what oils are released is so beneficial over a broader range of temperatures.

[Dimner]

the lube on the boolit doesn't cause the first shot flyer.
it's the condition of what's in your barrel that does it.

Let's talk about that a little bit more.

When I was going through prep and execution of my ladder test with White label 2500+ lube, I made up 6 rounds at a given powder charge and COAL. Then changed just the powder charge as in any typical ladder test. I had to do 6 rounds because when I would shoot, the first round would always be outside the main group by about 2 to 4 inches.

During shooting I would shoot the first round. Do the next 5 (these would group), let the barrel cool down. (I would go check my target, or jibber jabber with another guy at the range). Mind you, with these loads, my barrel was never near anything like very hot when you shoot even 4 factory loads.

When I came back and the barrel was cool enough (i didn't always let it get dead cold, just cool). I would start the next increment in charge. Usually I only increment 0.5 grains at a time, never more than 1 grain at a time. This next shot is when I see the 2-4" flyer on the first shot.

Before your quote above, I was thinking that the cold barrel was causing the flyer. Is it actually the cooled down lube that remains in my barrel that causes the first flyer?

Meaning, if I cleaned the barrel in the same manner shot to shot, during the same ladder they would all group? Or group better?

you might want to read the 'lube quest' sticky, it leads down a whole bunch of rabbit holes and shows some results on different lubes [temp group size etc.] and the break down of many of lubes components. and what controls what.
the testing still hasn't stopped it's just slowed down since most of the participants just flat got burned out or have too many variables left to test.

the amount of lube applied really doesn't matter that much what matters is how/when the carrier releases the oils and what those oils are doing when they are released.
it shows some of the old stand byes as pretty good lubes within certain temperature windows and why modifying them or their release of their oils or what oils are released is so beneficial over a broader range of temperatures.

My question above may have already been discussed in that thread you mentioned. I'm going to have some good reading tonight