40 S&W on the way out?

[Petrol & Powder]

The .40 was originally more about selling guns than anything else. I initially felt it was an answer to a question I wasn't asking (being a 1911 junky who was perfectly happy with 7+1). Now it seems like it was the answer to the wrong question. 20/20 hindsight and all. . .

The 158 grain .38 SWCHP worked pretty well, but everybody wanted capacity, so the guns went away in favor of wondernines. The high speed, light weight 9mm's didn't work so well, as was seen in Miami '86. The FBI wrung out the mechanics and we got heavier bullets that expanded more slowly, penetrated deeper, and worked about like the old .38's did - maybe a bit better due to magic petals and cutting jackets.

The thing was, the 9mm "ineffective" reputation was already there, the new bullet tech was here, no departments were buying new guns because of the shiny new pistols acquired during the revolver swap outs, and the gun companies needed cash. So we got told we needed a change, were foisted the .40 Swindle & Whitewash, and marched like zombies to buy it. . .then got guns that wore out too fast and the LCD's couldn't shoot.

So, people and agencies are waking up. The .40 never got super huge in civilian circles, but change in agencies is slow. It's typically a matter of "follow the FBI", as they have the budget to do the testing that the little departments don't. Give it another 10-20 years, and I think it'll be phasing into a historical oddity like the 38-.40 - albeit one with A LOT of guns for it on the used market.

/\ THIS IS ON POINT /\

And to add to this, when the FBI went looking for a new cartridge after the 86 Miami shootout...... to fix bad tactics????.....that new cartridge couldn't be something that already existed. They had to come up with something new that didn't exist because if it existed the argument would be "why weren't you using that cartridge already?".
Once the FBI anointed the 40 S&W the market took off.

[warboar_21]

I don't think the 40 is going anywhere soon.
Out of a full size duty gun it's great. Out of a small compact CCW the guns are far to snappy for many shooters.

[warboar_21]

/\ THIS IS ON POINT /\

And to add to this, when the FBI went looking for a new cartridge after the 86 Miami shootout...... to fix bad tactics????.....that new cartridge couldn't be something that already existed. They had to come up with something new that didn't exist because if it existed the argument would be "why weren't you using that cartridge already?".
Once the FBI anointed the 40 S&W the market took off.

If I remember right they switched to the 10MM first before finding out that while the 10mm would certainly fit the bill the guns that it was being fired from and many agents couldn't handle it. That is were the 40S&W was born.

[robertbank]

If I remember right they switched to the 10MM first before finding out that while the 10mm would certainly fit the bill the guns that it was being fired from and many agents couldn't handle it. That is were the 40S&W was born.

For the win.

Take Care

Bob

[MT Gianni]

As a cartridge I like it. I have a Kahr Cm 40 that is easily controllable, fits in my palm and is accurate. What is not to like. I read gun tests that claim the 9mm CM is a handful and wonder what 5th grader they had shooting it. My S&W is a fun thing to shoot as well. Neither group as well as the Kimber 45, nor shoot as rapidly between reloads as a CZ75 but I am happy with it as a carry cartridge.

[35remington]

Yes. The 40 was adopted after defining what worked well with the protocols and ammo available at the time, then going after it after making a 10mm misstep? along the way.

Suggesting the idea to develop it was ill considered or political won't wash. It must have worked quite acceptably or so many wouldn't have used it for so long. They got a gun that did what was desired at the time that held more ammo.

[JMax]

We need to remember that it was originally called the 40 Short & Weak but I do have one and enjoy it very much but carry a Glock 43 in 9mm every day due to size and weight.

[Petrol & Powder]

If I remember right they switched to the 10MM first before finding out that while the 10mm would certainly fit the bill the guns that it was being fired from and many agents couldn't handle it. That is were the 40S&W was born.

That's correct. The 10mm was the initial step and then the FBI downloaded the 10mm cartridge. At that point there was little need for the larger 10mm casing that required an equally large magazine & pistol. The 40 S&W was able to duplicate the ballistics of the downloaded 10mm and it could fit in a smaller package. Thus the 40 S&W was born.

The concept isn't horrible but it isn't really all that great either.

[daleraby]

This topic has, in general, been discussed around many a campfire since Cain and Abel. The 40 S&W and/or the 10mm FBI load are pretty much ballistic twins to my favorite, that being the 38 WCF, AKA 38-40 Winchester. That worthy chambering introduced in the post-civil war period, makes a fine six-gun cartridge delivering a 180 grain bullet on target at something like 800-900 FPS out of a 5 1/2" barrel and does considerably better out of a Winchester Model 73 or 92 carbine or rifle. The same package in an automatic load is just as good as it has always been in a rimmed revolver cartridge.

That said, my favorite has never been especially popular. Back in the day its competitors were 32 WCF AKA 32-20 Winchester, 44 WCF AKA 44-40 Winchester and everyone's favorite 45 Colt... though folks had to wait until the Model 92 before a carbine was available in that chambering. Not much has changed balistically; the battle now being between the 9mm, 40 S&W and .45 ACP.

The things that HAVE changed are technology, especially as it applies to bullet design and the demographics of police forces. Back in the day, a cop was generally a male of larger than average size with no small measure of gonadal fortitude. Now, he or she is as often as not some kind of social scientist as well as a shootist. Most women do not like recoil and it takes considerably more effort and expense to train ANYONE to shoot accurately with a heavy recoiler. 9mm, with its soft recoil in even the heavy modern loads is much easier to shoot accurately and with quick follow-up shots. Fast accurate shooting is pretty much the essence of successful gunfighting.

It may well be that the 40 S&W has become obsolete for law enforcement... but that does not mean it won't do for walking the trail or the beat with. I heard of a town constable in a town to the North of here who carried a Colt SAA in 44-40 well into the 1950's. He'd been shooting it so long he didn't even need the sights and saw no need for the then modern DA revolvers. Obsolete does not mean ineffective and if it ain't broke, there is no need to fix it.

[OptimusPanda]

I'm reminded of this video. It's pretty funny. "The People Who Carry .40 S&W" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuiePszwaho

[Tackleberry41]

I looked into the 38-40, since I like the caliber, but finding a gun was a serious issue.

It is funny to see it said 'the 40 is an answer to a question I never asked' like the gun makers call up one guy to ask if something should be made or not. So the question was asked or it would never have existed. Like the gun market goes and asks one guy if something should be made or not.

10mm is cool, but your back to a big heavy big to use it, and not exactly friendly to people with smaller hands. I like the 45 ACP, but it is limited due to pressure, you can only push so hard. The 45 super a modern update to it, that really hasn't gone anywhere. If 45 super was widely available, many would have shifted over, but it remains a handload thing. Glock tried to get a 45 in a smaller gun with the GAP, but its really not in high demand. But at least you can get ammo for it, place near me has a selection. If I didn't have to chase the brass, might look into it. I load for 45 super and 460 rowland, but in a wheel gun, so no digging thru the grass for my empties.

In this forum one would think people would be a little more open, considering the not in the book things we do. And the wide array of obsolete calibers people are loading. Some are getting into the 327 mag, 6 shots in what used to be a 5 shot gun. Makes you wonder if someone will make a 327 sig, or a 9mm necked down to 327. To get that little bit extra but in an autoloader.

I saw someone has a charter arms, I had seem them making them, but always been put off by charter arms not exactly stellar reputation. The guy I know in a shop says any he has seen are junk, but not sure how many he has seen.

[scattershot]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is ammo availability. During the late great unlamented ammo crisis, I could find .40 fairly easily.
The round does seem to have lost its luster, though, but the upside is that police turnins can be found very reasonably of late. Too, most of those can be converted to 9mm fairly readily, if that floats your boat.

[Earlwb]

I never really understood how a 125 grain hollow point fired out of a .357 mag at around 1325 fps was considered a great cartridge but a 115 grain +P hollow point fired from a 9mm and going around 1325 fps (and even faster when +P+) was often considered marginal. Was that 10 grain and .002" difference that critical ?

It was simply people didn't know any better. They never noticed the ballistics or were told about it. So they just jumped on the bandwagon and agreed with the others bad mouthing the 9mm in general and not the 9mm +P or 9mm+P+.

[Bigslug]

If I remember right they switched to the 10MM first before finding out that while the 10mm would certainly fit the bill the guns that it was being fired from and many agents couldn't handle it. That is were the 40S&W was born.

That, and the semi-auto technology of the late '80's not really being up to the task either.

One of the things I've learned is that the hard-chargers often come up with stuff that works well for them, but it often crashes and burns horribly when handed to the rank and file such was the case with the 10mm. Jeff Cooper thought it was a neat idea. A lot of knowledgeable gun writers thought it was a neat idea. People who couldn't care less thought it was a cannon.

Another post coming up.

[Bigslug]

/\ THIS IS ON POINT /\

And to add to this, when the FBI went looking for a new cartridge after the 86 Miami shootout...... to fix bad tactics????.....that new cartridge couldn't be something that already existed. They had to come up with something new that didn't exist because if it existed the argument would be "why weren't you using that cartridge already?".
Once the FBI anointed the 40 S&W the market took off.

Ah yes. . .the need for the "new"

One of my initial reactions on reading the specs of the then-new .40 S&W was "Congrats guys. . .you just invented the .45ACP"

Not exactly though. They kinda duplicated the .45 - which typically does its thing under 20,000 psi - in a package that needs over 30,000 psi to do the same thing. A lot of the early guns wore and broke a lot of stuff. A lot of the next gen got bigger and heavier to deal with it. All in the name of "new".

We've seen it with sporting rifle cartridges in the name of faster/flatter/harder-hitting while the fans of the .30-30, .30-06, and even the .45-70 shrug and continue to put mountains of game in the freezer. We seem to be seeing (hopefully), that it's just a lump of lead, and that the hundred year old solutions are valid ones. They've stood the test of time. It's looking more and more like the .40 hasn't. Does it work? Sure. But when the modern, post-'86 ammo tech gets applied fairly across the board, it doesn't really do anything better and does some things worse than what we had before. Ammo will be loaded for it for ages to come - heck, you can go out and buy .218 Bee - but how long it stays a big agency, front-line duty round remains to be seen.

[leeggen]

Went the local gun shop saturday. Looked at the used guns and there were alot of revolvers in the case and in the autos there were more 9mm than anyof the other calibers. It is a locality thing I think as to what is in the used cases. Went to the son n laws local shop and the were several 45s in the cases. Seemed to be the more city area the smaller the caliber but back here in the more open area the larger calibers are kept. That is why differenant calibers are sold as with cars and trucks. Look how long the mustang and camaros have been around but the cougars and novas passed away.
CD

[DougGuy]

The .40 is pretty limited by running out of headroom fairly quickly, so there isn't a lot of loads for it that aren't already pegging the pressure ceiling. I found it quite limiting when handloading. Maybe factory ammo sees a greater variety but I bailed on it rather quickly when it came out.

[NavyVet1959]

First came the 10mm. Then the girly men over at the FBI found out that they couldn't handle it, so they created the 10mm-Lite. Then S&W decided that they could get the same power that the 10mm-Lite was producing in a shorter cartridge and the .40SW was born. It had the "advantage" of being shorter, thus a smaller frame firearm could be developed -- the same size as the 9x19s that were already on the market. This allowed the even girly-er FBI agents to be able to handle it (i.e. wrap their sensitive little hands around the grip). And thus, the girly-man caliber was born.

[fatelk]

The .40 is pretty limited by running out of headroom fairly quickly, so there isn't a lot of loads for it that aren't already pegging the pressure ceiling. I found it quite limiting when handloading.

Not challenging this, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying that it can't be effectively downloaded?

The only .40 I have is a Glock. It's not my only gun or my favorite gun, but I do like it well enough and never had a problem with it. I really only have one load for it; a 180 gr bullet at just over 900fps. It has always worked fine for me. As a personal preference I do prefer my CZ75 9mm.

[NavyVet1959]

Not challenging this, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying that it can't be effectively downloaded?

The only .40 I have is a Glock. It's not my only gun or my favorite gun, but I do like it well enough and never had a problem with it. I really only have one load for it; a 180 gr bullet at just over 900fps. It has always worked fine for me. As a personal preference I do prefer my CZ75 9mm.

I think what he's saying is that the normal loads already fill up the .40SW case pretty well given the existing bullet sizes / seating depths, so any powder increase would end up causing a non-linear pressure excursion.

Of course, that's not the case if you are loading those .40SW pieces of brass to 10mm OAL and pressure. On that, you just have more bullet showing. But, if your magazine can't handle the longer ammo and your barrel doesn't have an extended leade on it, that might not be an option.