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Thread: Accurate PC 350 Yds part 1

  1. #141
    Boolit Bub ibgp3's Avatar
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    Proof of Concept for solar PC

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    A Solar oven for Baking on PC. Now it can stay outside with no plug.
    Empty it went from room temperature to 400 degrees in about 1/2 hour.
    The tray has a Quarter for scale. I may start baking a pile since there is no way to keep
    bullets standing on their base sliding that tray into the oven.

  2. #142
    Boolit Buddy Phantom30's Avatar
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    Try the All American Sun Oven, $300, Suspension grill supports standup boolit cookie sheets, heats to 360-400F, its standard issue for prepers.
    https://www.sunoven.com/all-american-sun-oven/
    may have to talk to smokes to make sure the powder will bake fully at the available temperature

  3. #143
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    ibjp3 similar to a thread on swaging cast boolits a few years back. An OP actually made one but no reports back I know of. Biggest problem appears to be the force needed to drive the boolit back out. You could cast/coat slightly small and use the nose punch force to swage the nose bigger as it exits. Friction and springback are a big problem. Thought of a split die or split on one side and clamped, release clamp to extract. Assume the GC is installed when body sizing first.
    Whatever!

  4. #144
    Boolit Bub ibgp3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    If using the NOE nose sizer, got the proper nose punch too. Even after beveling the entrance on mine I get stuck boolits. Lube didn't help any.
    I spent a lot of time trying to figure this one out on 6.5
    Scraped a lot of lead off of a lot of bullets, polished for hours and still scraped lead.
    For some reason I thought to try the bullet in the back side of the bushing. It went in farther before it got resistance.
    So I set things up to nose size into the back side of the bushing and scraped no lead!
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    There are things I don't like about the results and this may be a bad idea, but the technique can be applied to a good idea.

    Getting closer.
    Last edited by ibgp3; 05-27-2017 at 04:01 PM.

  5. #145
    Boolit Bub ibgp3's Avatar
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    Doing bullet preparation with commercial sources:

    1. Nose sizing (268 to 257) puts a lot more pressure on the base than body sizing (268 to 266).
    ...install the gas check while nose sizing. Treat gently until locked on in body sizing.
    2. NOE sizers are more accurate than LEE. (I'm told.) LEE sizers are more easily used than NOE. (I promise.)
    ...get both. I have ordered LEE sizers in .257 and .266 (Both custom) Bullet prep before PC will be done with LEE.
    ...final sizing after PC will be done with NOE.
    ...Different sizes for different rifles and experimentation are cheap and quickly available from NOE.

    Input?

    Anybody?
    Last edited by ibgp3; 05-27-2017 at 07:23 PM.

  6. #146
    Boolit Bub ibgp3's Avatar
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Solar cooked in a pile. Gonna hafta figure out a way to stand them up.

  7. #147
    Boolit Buddy Phantom30's Avatar
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    For all the effort you are putting into this you might consider a custom mold that takes most of the work out of it. $80 delivered for a dual cavity mold isn't that much. Plus with slight alloy adjusted under sizing the mold design you can set the bore rider so you don't have the nose sizing problem and you can get rid of the grease groves. Again the sun oven will let you stand them up but only about 100 at a time.

  8. #148
    Boolit Bub ibgp3's Avatar
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    Cool 38-55

    38-55 is my ultimate target, this is for practice while I wait for custom items to be made.
    The problem in 38-55 is that I have three different size bores and 4 different chambers.
    I hope to adapt one mold to all four,...but maybe not.

  9. #149
    Boolit Bub ibgp3's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom30 View Post
    ... you might consider a custom mold that takes most of the work out of it. Plus with slight alloy adjusted under sizing the mold design you can set the bore rider so you don't have the nose sizing problem and you can get rid of the grease groves.
    This has been in the works for a couple of months, finally got the confirmation drawing back yesterday.
    I totally agreed with you!!Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #150
    Boolit Buddy Phantom30's Avatar
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    The 309 PC boolit mold designs shown previously in this thread are now available from Arsenal Molds. This is the link to the rebated Boat Tail version, the GC version is just before it.

    http://arsenalmolds.com/bullet-molds?product_id=178

    The technology applied in this thread has migrated to 6mm where the centrifugal forces are less and you can get a better BC nose for high speed long range repeatable accuracy from a CU alloy GC PC Cast boolit.

  11. #151
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Got to shoot the 31-165C HF red coated GC @ 200 yesterday. BDC scope on steel target - 2" 3 shot group - knocked over every time. LR308 carbine. Just trying to center the circle on the 10" plate. Found a 1/2x1/2" sliver with coating still on it.
    Alloy is isocore/Cu sheared off edge has a lot of small waves on it, PC still intact with stress cracks. 1900fps & 1360 ft-# @ 200, according to nikon_spot_on SW. BC ~ 0.38 So it didn't shatter!
    Attachment 206238Attachment 206240
    Attachment 206312
    Attachment 206313
    And the pig I tested my soft Sb/Cu/Zn alloy on. It was downed with 40M&P, I got the other with BO but he ran away.
    Last edited by popper; 10-21-2017 at 02:58 PM.
    Whatever!

  12. #152
    Boolit Bub ibgp3's Avatar
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    You have yours working, Congrats!

  13. #153
    Boolit Buddy Phantom30's Avatar
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    Methodolgy migrated to 243 / 6mm

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    Bama's metallurgy and processing are very well suited for 6mm / 243. High speed and accuracy have been demonstrated in 6x45 and 6mm Creedmoor. The design above is now available at Arsenal Molds in up to 5 cavity. The drive band dimension with an added increment for the thickness for the GC base should equal the cartridge neck of the caliber you desire. This is an under specified core mold, so that when the PC is applied it is up to or slightly above full round specification. With the hardness of the alloy you will still be able to size it without using a swagging press. In Bama's process the keys are GC seating, pre and post PC sizing of the drive band and post PC sizing of the bore rider section. The net drive band length with the specification shown is 0.310 which is good for 6CM. The red numbers can be tailored with your mold order to match your caliber application. (PS Like popper once said this thread should have been a sticky)

  14. #154
    Boolit Buddy Phantom30's Avatar
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    This shows the PC bullet in comparison to the Hornady 108gr ELD Match bullet in the Creedmoor, with 308W and 223 casings. When you seat the PC bullet to the base of the GC is at the base of the casing neck you can see how much bore rider extends past standard ogive. This aids in accuracy and alignment. That is also why you size the bore rider section. The field verified BC for the PC boolit is 0.33, so using 44.0gr of H-1000 you get 2868 fps. This is still in optical hold over range on the scope out to 650 yards. The factory bullet has a BC of .536 and a muzzle of 2950 which carries the hold over limit out to 850 yards. So for a cast boolit that is not bad performance. Plus there is room for more powder and a lot more if you use IMR 8208 XBR.

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom30 View Post
    The 309 PC boolit mold designs shown previously in this thread are now available from Arsenal Molds. This is the link to the rebated Boat Tail version, the GC version is just before it.

    http://arsenalmolds.com/bullet-molds?product_id=178

    The technology applied in this thread has migrated to 6mm where the centrifugal forces are less and you can get a better BC nose for high speed long range repeatable accuracy from a CU alloy GC PC Cast boolit.
    Really good price! Leaps and bounds! Leaps and bounds. I Just Acquired a 308 I would love to try this bullet on. Appreciate it guys. This rocks!

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bama View Post
    I tried to get a decent pic showing the rifling engagement of the bore rider portion of a PCed Lee 200 gr shot at 2220 fps at 350 yds. The rifling shows equal engagement for the full circumference getting slightly thinner nearing the tip. Before firing the bore rider portion measured .301. Now it measures .304 to .308 and I do not know the effect of impact but the only way it could have uniform rifling engagement is if the bullet was swagged into the rifling on firing similar to a revolver. The rifling marks stopped about 3/16 inch shy of the start of the round nose. There is no indication of any sliding/skipping in the rifling is clean and sharp and other than being dirty the PCed area are in good condition except in impact area. The round disks are all that remains after impact with the AR plate. It makes it easier to understand why size and bore engagement are so critical to shooting accurately with cast bullets at higher velocities.
    Bama, that shows you have the alloy right for the pressure range. One should get rifling marks that far up the nose. popper called it nose slump (and I dislike that word slump) but I call it "getting bumped up".

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    Bama, your results and mine are the same. I use Smokes and HF powder and it's the same - both abrade going down the barrel. I only have a place for 100 yd shooting so the POI doesn't show, I also don't clean the barrel often. I did have that black gunk clog the gas key in the ARs and it's mostly NOT lead. Acetone pretty well cleans up the PC from glazed tile I cook on, going to try MEK next.
    R5R - I was reading some Army docs a few years back, they did tests on Mil ammo and found the core was swaged into the throat/bore/rifling, not 'cut'. For 'long' throats, it does get swaged to throat, then 'cut' on forward motion. I was surprised by the radial vs axial pressures they measured in the tests, IIRC, 1/3 at ignition. Test were by 'drop hammer the base', not fired bullets. IIRC they used a charge behind a slug that then impacted the base in a closed 'container' with many pressure gauges.
    It's hard to find "real MEK". The sell stuff now that is called a substitute. I miss the real MEK as it was good stuff for a lot of applications.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bama View Post
    I know this post may be controversial but I want explain something I have found concerning PC buildup in barrels especially for anyone running in high ends of velocity. I normally shoot at least 200 rounds per week. I have used powder from two sources and temperature is checked with thermocouple so I do not believe it is a problem with material or methods. Coating or “buildup” is not easily seen with the necked eye but the effects show up in shooting and in cleaning if certain cleaners are used. We shoot off stable benches usually at 350 yds at peel off dots on AR500 plate. Guns have aluminum bedding blocks in stocks for stability and typically 6 to 25 scopes so changes stand out. If a box of 50 rounds are shot without cleaning and stopping after each 5 shots to let barrel cool the point of impact will rise almost 6 inches (2500+ fps start velocity) and groups start opening up. If barrel is cleaned point of impact drops back to initial point. I had noticed that during cleaning patches were almost black. I initially thought that carbon from the powder was the issue. Several of the brushes put away without a complete wipe down has what looked like black varnish on the base when dry some so thick that I could not screw back into the cleaning rod. I tried all the normal solvents other than my normal cleaner from paint thinner, lacquer thinner, gas, even PVC pipe cleaner and Kano oil and none would touch it. As a trial I cleaned it using the cleaner previously used until patches were clean and then run a wet patch of Bore Tech Eliminator and it came out black. It took two brush scrubbing s and 8 more patches to get a clean patch. I have not seen any major indications of excess pressure in the rifle brass. Primers are flattened about the same as factory jacked round. I have also had this same condition on a 45 acp barrel. No indications could be seen looking down barrel from either end but still took 2 wet brush scrubbing s and about 8 patches to get a clean patch. I’m not sure if the coating only builds up to a certain depth and stops or continues to build. It does affect accuracy, is harder to remove, and only certain cleaners will touch it.
    I remember a long time back and geargnasher was on this forum (before I was) and I believe he and maybe Goodsteel were talking about some real dark brown almost black build up in the bore of their rifles but from using a certain bullet lube which unfortunately now escapes my memory. Someone might remember. I don't think your PC build up is an isolated case.

  19. #159
    Boolit Master
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    I know I am beating a dead horse, but those chasing the elusive accuracy at range with full power loads, found a while back that molds designed for lube just had too much metal to move for making a concentric powder coated bullet, without a lot of special tools and effort. So my hats off to any mold company that is willing to make molds suitable for powder coating; A big step in the right direction.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibgp3 View Post
    This has been in the works for a couple of months, finally got the confirmation drawing back yesterday.
    I totally agreed with you!!Click image for larger version. 

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    Has anyone actually procured and developed a load for this Boolit yet? Targets at 100 yards (or 350 Yards as per the start of this thread)?

    I am interested in the boolit as I think I've wringed all the accuracy I can from HF Red coating on 311644, 311299, RCBS 200 Sil and RCBS 165 Sil cast boolits in my .308's and they do not get the accuracy I am seeking at higher velocities to date. (The RCBS 165 Sil has performed best). I am focusing on .308 caliber Swaging Dies at the moment so I am not interested buying an untested mold; looking for someone who has actually bought the mold and has Load data with it and some target pics from testing.


    It's available with a 3-4 day wait time at: http://arsenalmolds.com/bullet-molds...it=99999999999
    Mustang

    "In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check