webley 1892 loads

[w30wcf]

Ballistics In Scotland,
Unfortunately, in my limited experience, soft slugs bump up ok with b.p. but not as well with smokeless, with the exception of Trailboss. More on that later.

I prefer the poly disc because it is elastic in that it will be reduced in size in the case, but when the pressure is applied it will quickly adapt to the dimension of the throat / groove, putting pressure against the circumference, sealing the powder gases behind. About 15 years ago I acquired an original '73 Winchester .44 W.C.F. that turned out to have a very oversized barrel (.435" avg. groove diameter). I had a supply of .428" cast bullets and was trying to fiqure out how best to use them. I hit upon the idea of using a .06" thick poly wad, and, to my surprise, it worked extremely well allowing the .007" undersized cast bullet to transverse the barrel, keeping the powder gases behind and provided accurate shooting.

Back to the .455...

Buffalo Arms offers the original hollow base bullet in 20/1 alloy, so that could be an option as well (no disc needed).



http://www.buffaloarms.com/455_Weble....aspx?CAT=4135

Now back to Trailboss. A couple of years ago, I tested some .45 Colt factory ammunition in my Marlin Cowboy Rifle out of curiosity to see how accurate the different brands were. Hornady was one of the brands tested. It shot well but after 10 rounds, there was leading building up in the throat. I pulled a couple of bullets and found that the .454" bullet (7 BHN) had been reduced closer to .450" during the seating process, with the base of the bullet checking in at closer to .446".

I had seen a test where Trailboss was tested in a .45-70 and the pressure spike was actually a bit quicker than b.p., so I decided to reload with 5.8/Trailboss and the undersized 7 BHN bullets. The outcome was that there was no more throat leading and good accuracy was maintained, proof that Trailboss was bumping up the bullets to fill the throat and thus not permitting the powder gases to get by.

w30wcf

[Oyeboten]

Thank you for that kind remark. That poly disc would have the same benefit as well-fitting card, and the same possible problem if it was combined with a hollow base bullet. The low-velocity Webley will cope with soft lead bullets better than most revolvers, and as long as it is soft, there is every chance that a flat-based bullet will expand to seal the throat.

It sounds like it is all systems go for the OP.

Definitely the disparity between the Cylinder Bore diameters and the Barrel Bore diameter is less than ideal...and with light ( or less than full ) charges, even a pure Lead Bullet might not upset enough to alleviate early 'Blow By', before having to squeeze down in the Forcing Cone.

[w30wcf]

Before there were "Cowboy" loads that use flat based bullets, .45 Colt factory ammunition was loaded with hollow based bullets as were other pistol calibers.... namely .38's and .44's. That was done to give the best results in guns with less than ideal tolerances between the cylinder throats and barrels.

The standard .45 Colt (not Cowboy) as offered by Winchester still uses hollow based bullets as the pic on the box indicates. Velocity 860 f.p.s.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/290...ead-round-nose.

At one time they offered the bullet as a component but, unfortunately they haven't been available for quite some time now.
Note the .456" bullet diameter. That was the original diameter.



w30wcf

[ehsa]

i am thinking of reslugging my cylinder and bore on this 1892 webley as all i had available were round balls for the .44 cap and ball revolver which do not give much bearing surface due to their shape. i still do not have anything except i did receive those .454 bullets yesterday from desperado cowboy bullets. i dropped one thru the cylinder and it fell thru with only the base of the bullet hanging up and i just pulled it out with my fingers. i wonder if it would be good if a lead bullet that was a press thru fit in the cylinder would be a good idea.i mean one you that is snug pushing it thru.john

[ehsa]

gentleman.my wife took some photos of the wilkinson webley 1892 with her phone then emailed them to me.my son who live 5 hours from me put them in a link which is http://imgur.com/a/vjVrU that last v and u on the end may be capital letters. anyway hope this works. the barrel smudges are oil. john

[PS Paul]

Wow! What a gorgeous specimen!!!

[ehsa]

Wow! What a gorgeous specimen!!!

sorry i meant to put a note with the pictures that the gun has been reblued sorry for that lapse in my thinking.john

[Oyeboten]

Before there were "Cowboy" loads that use flat based bullets, .45 Colt factory ammunition was loaded with hollow based bullets as were other pistol calibers.... namely .38's and .44's. That was done to give the best results in guns with less than ideal tolerances between the cylinder throats and barrels.

The standard .45 Colt (not Cowboy) as offered by Winchester still uses hollow based bullets as the pic on the box indicates. Velocity 860 f.p.s.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/290...ead-round-nose.

At one time they offered the bullet as a component but, unfortunately they haven't been available for quite some time now.
Note the .456" bullet diameter. That was the original diameter.



w30wcf

I sure wish we could by those somewhere!

I need for Santa to bring me a nice smaller old time Machine Shop so I can start making my own Swaging Dies I think...

[Oyeboten]

gentleman.my wife took some photos of the wilkinson webley 1892 with her phone then emailed them to me.my son who live 5 hours from me put them in a link which is http://imgur.com/a/vjVrU that last v and u on the end may be capital letters. anyway hope this works. the barrel smudges are oil. john

Very handsome old Revolver!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, it is a beautiful specimen, clearly unabused, and the wood doesn't show wear or shrinkage. I wouldn't consider the reblue as reducing its value.

I've said how small details of style don't necessarily date these revolvers precisely. I think it is basically an 1892, but late enough to have the nitro proof, which looks like it was done at the same time as the other proofmarks. Boothroyd confirms that the HW in a star was the mark of Wilkingson. I am sure the engraved word has an A, making it "late 4th Hussars". I have seen the like elsewhere.and although the end of the word isn't quite clear, it looks like the A in "Hussars" is in the same flat-topped style. All right, you can't have Churchill's revolver, but this one almost certainly belonged to someone who knew him.

The trigger-guard is interesting. Is it bright steel or nickel plated, and is the hammer the same? Either would be quite sensible for the parts that are handled the most, in a hot climate. Even bare steel can be polished as much as you like. It is possible that if it is a 1905 and this trigger-guard was a special order item, it may have come without the fillet (which I have never seen) which covers the 1905 guard screw.

[w30wcf]

i am thinking of reslugging my cylinder and bore on this 1892 webley as all i had available were round balls for the .44 cap and ball revolver which do not give much bearing surface due to their shape. i still do not have anything except i did receive those .454 bullets yesterday from desperado cowboy bullets. i dropped one thru the cylinder and it fell thru with only the base of the bullet hanging up and i just pulled it out with my fingers. i wonder if it would be good if a lead bullet that was a press thru fit in the cylinder would be a good idea.i mean one you that is snug pushing it thru.john

ehsa,
I would certainly give the Trailboss loads first with those softer Desperado bullets. Seems like they are close to the throat diameter. Tests have been done that have shown that cast bullets are that are no more than .001" under throat diameter work pretty much as well as those at throat diameter.

The issue with larger bullets is that will they chamber accept a cartridge with larger diameter bullets(?), and if so, will the reloading dies (specifically the mouth expander) allow the use of larger diameter bullets(?).

There is a somewhat easy way of bumping up bullets. Have someone make an aluminum rod to fit a fired annealed case. I say annealed because that will fit the closest to the chamber. Also when the rod is made, have the diameter of the upper portion .002"-.003" larger than the target bullet diameter. Place the case and the bullet into the seating die backed out not to crimp. Adjust the seating stem to touch the bullet then turn it in 1/4 turn, and seat. Keep adjusting until the required diameter is reached.

Here is sectioned pic of .45-70 case I used to bump up some undersized bullets.


As I said though, give the Trailboss loads a try, that may be all you need.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Very Nice! A wonderful example of an historic firearm!

Ballistics In Scotland, Thank you for your very informative post.

[ehsa]

Yes, it is a beautiful specimen, clearly unabused, and the wood doesn't show wear or shrinkage. I wouldn't consider the reblue as reducing its value.

I've said how small details of style don't necessarily date these revolvers precisely. I think it is basically an 1892, but late enough to have the nitro proof, which looks like it was done at the same time as the other proofmarks. Boothroyd confirms that the HW in a star was the mark of Wilkingson. I am sure the engraved word has an A, making it "late 4th Hussars". I have seen the like elsewhere.and although the end of the word isn't quite clear, it looks like the A in "Hussars" is in the same flat-topped style. All right, you can't have Churchill's revolver, but this one almost certainly belonged to someone who knew him.

The trigger-guard is interesting. Is it bright steel or nickel plated, and is the hammer the same? Either would be quite sensible for the parts that are handled the most, in a hot climate. Even bare steel can be polished as much as you like. It is possible that if it is a 1905 and this trigger-guard was a special order item, it may have come without the fillet (which I have never seen) which covers the 1905 guard screw.

in trying to remember i think that both the trigger guard and hammer were i think done in chrome. the trigger guard was originally blue i believe and the hammer polished steel or nickel. i have owned the revolver 9 or 10 years and just not 100% positive about it. i kept a journal for over 30 years but i may have stopped writing by that time.thank you very much for your insight and good evaluation of the revolver. i must admit i wish i knew who N.B.E. was, do you think this was a retirement piece?thank you john

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It could well have been a presentation gift, most likely on retirement. Or the owner might have had it engraved out of nostalgia. There isn't room for "Late" to have been inserted after the rest. N isn't a common initial, so almost certainly if you can find a regimental muster roll for a year when he served, you've got him. As I said, the regimental museum would probably have them, or know where they have been placed. He would probably be a officer, but the unwritten law is that a regimental sergeant-major towered above mere lieutenants, and they were quite well paid. There is an account of a sergeant-major doing great execution in one of the cavalry skirmishes of 1914, with his own pair of Webley .455 automatics.

Here is a document drawn up at a review in Aldershot, a training area in the UK, in 1895. I don't know if it is complete, but it does suggest that NBE was out of the army by that time.

http://shadowsoftime.co.nz/P&M1864.html

Here is some information on muster rolls held in the National Archives at Kew - only on paper I think, but there are probably research firms which do regular business there, and could supply a copy at a price:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/h...sts-1730-1898/

An officer would certainly be in the Army List if you can find the right year, but a warrant officer such as a sergeant-major, who receives a warrant from the army rather than a commission from the sovereign, probably wouldn't be. Most for that period are listed by rank and date of last promotion, so an individual is hard to find. The first of these is a website on which examples can be seen in a rather confusing online form, and the second is a firm from which you can buy copies on CD.

https://archive.org/details/nlsarmylists

https://genealogysupplies.com/produc...Naval-Records/

Initials and unit aren't enough for www.forces-war-records.co.uk/ . That was how I traced the man who was given my first edition of Lewis Carrol's "Through the Looking-Glass" in 1875 (cheap because the bookstore didn't recognise the publisher's own morocco binding), and took it to South Africa in 1899 (Only in the British Army!) I believe he is the same officer who ended the First World War as a lieutenant-colonel of garrison artillery, which means heavies. It isn't a gun, but has probably been places and seen things like yours.

[ehsa]

It could well have been a presentation gift, most likely on retirement. Or the owner might have had it engraved out of nostalgia. There isn't room for "Late" to have been inserted after the rest. N isn't a common initial, so almost certainly if you can find a regimental muster roll for a year when he served, you've got him. As I said, the regimental museum would probably have them, or know where they have been placed. He would probably be a officer, but the unwritten law is that a regimental sergeant-major towered above mere lieutenants, and they were quite well paid. There is an account of a sergeant-major doing great execution in one of the cavalry skirmishes of 1914, with his own pair of Webley .455 automatics.

Here is a document drawn up at a review in Aldershot, a training area in the UK, in 1895. I don't know if it is complete, but it does suggest that NBE was out of the army by that time.

http://shadowsoftime.co.nz/P&M1864.html

Here is some information on muster rolls held in the National Archives at Kew - only on paper I think, but there are probably research firms which do regular business there, and could supply a copy at a price:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/h...sts-1730-1898/

An officer would certainly be in the Army List if you can find the right year, but a warrant officer such as a sergeant-major, who receives a warrant from the army rather than a commission from the sovereign, probably wouldn't be. Most for that period are listed by rank and date of last promotion, so an individual is hard to find. The first of these is a website on which examples can be seen in a rather confusing online form, and the second is a firm from which you can buy copies on CD.

https://archive.org/details/nlsarmylists

https://genealogysupplies.com/produc...Naval-Records/

Initials and unit aren't enough for www.forces-war-records.co.uk/ . That was how I traced the man who was given my first edition of Lewis Carrol's "Through the Looking-Glass" in 1875 (cheap because the bookstore didn't recognise the publisher's own morocco binding), and took it to South Africa in 1899 (Only in the British Army!) I believe he is the same officer who ended the First World War as a lieutenant-colonel of garrison artillery, which means heavies. It isn't a gun, but has probably been places and seen things like yours.

thank you for the very good information.john

[Chill Wills]

I think the Lyman 457 195 hollow base (with pin) is the mold to look for. Or hope for....
It casts a 225grain +/- bullet

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There is a whole genre of British children's jokes which begin "I have good news and bad news". Here is a website which can supply a considerable amount of information on Webley-Wilkingson and Webley revolvers, sometimes extending to the purchaser's name. But it looks as if the revolver about which we have been talking most, would be listed in a missing volume.

http://www.armsresearch.co.uk/Wilkin...0Firearms.html

[ehsa]

There is a whole genre of British children's jokes which begin "I have good news and bad news". Here is a website which can supply a considerable amount of information on Webley-Wilkingson and Webley revolvers, sometimes extending to the purchaser's name. But it looks as if the revolver about which we have been talking most, would be listed in a missing volume.

http://www.armsresearch.co.uk/Wilkin...0Firearms.html

thank you for the link i am looking it over and the book with my serial number is indeed missing.john

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Well I've got mine, arrived in the UK without the slightest legal or administrative difficulty from Track of the Wolf:

I don't believe it is the sort of Webley anyone would call a gorgeous specimen, and certainly not the kind anybody is likely to have carried into battle, stirrup to stirrup with Winston. It is a .32 rimfire, and more the kind a farmer might take to market if he was collecting payment in cash. It is marked "Webley's Patent" with no address, and was probably retailed by someone else. But it has an interesting place in Webley's history.

They had made good cap and ball revolvers, but this is among the first of their cartridge revolvers. They had already made a licensed copy of the bottom-break Smith and Wesson No2, a favourite of Napoleon III, which may account for their starting out in the belief that a .32 rimfire could be fairly large. Oddly enough it is a contemporary of their enormous .577 revolvers, which also had the ratchet cylinder stops (less weakening than notches) and no extractor of any kind. It didn't last long on the market, as it was pretty well wiped out by the Bulldog model, rather more pocketable and fitted with the usual swivelled ejector rod. Centrefires took over from rimfires to a large extent - urgently with the .44s, since their reliability declines with size, less so with a .32, but the owner of this kind of revolver was unlikely to fire it enough for cheapness of ammunition to matter.

Track priced it as a rather uncollectible small foreign revolver. It is failing to fire on single action, but that has got to be easier to fix than the Spirlet. It will need an axis pin locking spring made as well, but I have a picture in Bruce and Reinhart's book. The hole for it is filled with a roll of cloth, which makes it a "sleeper" if ever there was.

Another I could own with no formality whatever is the WP model, smaller even than the ordinary pocket top break Webleys, in the .320 version but not the .32S&W. That is a 20th century revolver, though, and more difficult to get out of the United States nowadays.

[Outpost75]

I think the Lyman 457 195 hollow base (with pin) is the mold to look for. Or hope for....
It casts a 225grain +/- bullet

Accurate has several "Modern Webley" designs which might also be considered. While Tom doesn't produce a hollow-based mold, if you want to order a mold in nose pour to have the mold modified and base pins outsourced by Erik at www.hollowpointmold.com, this can be done if you specify on your order. You can also specify bullet diameter and alloy. The cylinder throats on my Kirst conversion cylinder are .453" and the chamber throats in the cylinder on my Webley MkVI vary considerably and have deep pitting which was revealed by DougGuy after removing the years of accumulated leading and impacted fouling. Here is a photo Doug took after the first initial ream, just enough to uniform the chambers to the point where all will accept a .452 gage pin all the way through. It looks pretty UGLY, but shooting should be improved simply by making the throats uniform and cleaning them up, hopefully enough to get clean throat entrances so there is no longer a portal for gases to leak past the bullet. Residual pitting and tool marks beyond the entrance to the throats shouldn't hurt appreciably IF the bullet is able to achieve a good gas seal on initial shot-start. At least that is the plan. I expect to clean up acceptably, though not perfectly, he's going to need to get to .455+/-

Attachment 180992

These are the bullets I am currently experimenting with in my Webley Mk VI, my Ruger Old Army with Kirst cartridge conversion in .45 ACP (which also works splendidly with .455s!) and a break-open H&R .45 ACP built by John Taylor, in which the barrel was cut with a rim seat and custom ejector which works equally well with either rimless .45 ACP or rimmed .455 Mk II or Mk I brass.



Attachment 180986Attachment 180987Attachment 180988Attachment 180989