Can We Make a Powder Coated Bullet Concentric? I Think So.

[Dragonheart]

I had an interesting conversation with Al Nelson, the owner of NOE Bullet Molds, this Friday. Our conversation centered around his 30 caliber Hi-Tech Mold #HTC309-153. For those that do not own this mold, it produces a non-groove single band bullet stepped down to a straight center ending in a gentle taper at the ogive. Photo is of sized bullets.
Attachment 175805

I purchased this mold because I felt it would be an excellent bullet to powder coat for a 30-06 and in my M-1 Garand. In fact I believe that the non-groove bullet is exactly what we need for coating. Grooves are for lube, which we don’t need and having these grooves only provides an area to unevenly fill up with polymer, creating an area we can’t size and make uniform.

At the range last week, after a few sighting shots I fired this 5 shot group at 50 yards with this PC bullet driven by 49 grains of IMR 4895. I did not chronograph, but estimated velocity is 2800 FPS.
Attachment 175806

Some would say this group is impressive for PC, at least for a 68 year old, but when fired at 100 yards the shots looked more like a pattern than a group.

This finally brings us to the reason for my post. I originally did what I could to make this load accurate in case prep and charge. I used the NOE sizing system to nose size, band size and two powder coats sized between coats.

After the disappointing results at distance, I went back to the drawing board as I believed I was on the right track, building out the polymer jacket with multiple sized coats, which further work hardens the already hard and tough polymer. I wanted a build out of the polymer so to provide for a thicker coating.
I nose and band sized the raw cast bullet down in steps of .001”, to get a band size (caliber diameter) of .308”, NOE’s smallest 30 Cal bushing size, and .298” for the major diameter behind the ogive. I did a couple of bullets and felt I was on the right track but after doing a number and checking the bullets for concentricity it varied considerably. This has been discussed in a couple of posts, but not as a main topic.

To take an imperfect projectile, apply an imperfect coating to then expect the projectile to perform perfectly is unrealistic. Nose Sizing the body and in a separate step, size the band creates two perfect circles. Unfortunately when you lay a nickel on a quarter you have two perfect circles, but that doesn’t mean they are concentric to each other, meaning you have a non-concentric or lopsided bullet. Yes the rifling will impart a spin on the bullet, but it will spin on its imperfect center of gravity.

I believe if we are ever going to get a PC rifle bullet capable of delivering accuracy at full power it is going to take addressing the full bullet in a single operation. Several have already figured this out and they believe swaging the entire bullet is the ultimate answer. I discussed this topic with Al Nelson and he also agrees that swaging is the answer, but we also agreed most casters are not going to drop $500+ dollars on dies to swage every bullet they wish to shoot. What we came up with may be the best alternative and that would be a longer stepped sizing bushing that would fit the existing NOE sizing die. The longer bushing would size the band and center in a single operation, basically sizing everything but the ogive. This should give us as close to a concentric bullet as we can get without breaking the bank. I am sure others can also see this could lead to a line of High-Tech molds and bushings just for Powder Coating.

I would also like to point out that gun articles are already appearing about the rising cost of ammunition. Premium 30 caliber copper jacketed bullets already exceed $0.40 each, so if you could make polymer jacketed bullets that gave satisfactory performance at full power wouldn’t that be of interest?

Like everything we all have to get by economically, and NOE Molds has to make a profit to stay in business, so the question is now how many are interested in seeing a new NOE bushing created because volume sales is what is needed?

[sinker402]

I would be interested. this would basically be on the same lines as what I had in mind on another post. To make it work efficiently the mould and sizing die/bushing should come from the same manufacture. In my experiments with the Lee 312-155 I have taken a 2 cavity mould and removed the lube groves and sized a powder coated bullet by smashing it in a vise I ended up with fins because of nowhere for the flow of material to move.

There is two things I learned from this experiment 1) the size bushing/die will need to be slightly larger than the casting mould but not to large or the ironing effect of the powder coat will be irregular 2) Need to be aware how much sizing is needed before trying to size. The force needed to remove fro the sizer has to be accounted for. .002-.003 powder coat will more than likely work any larger will get stuck. Got to think volume not dimensions for full length sizing.

In my opinion this step will move powder coating from a child state to a teenage state. But I am scared of the cost to get there


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[turtlezx]

how accurate was this gun with J bullets ??

[Dragonheart]

how accurate was this gun with J bullets ??

I fired one clip (8 rounds) of 150 grain Nosler BT bullet same charge 49 grains of 4895 at 100 yards The Garand is better than me, I am sure at least half the group size spread is my short comings, at age 68 nothing functions well.
Attachment 175836

[Dragonheart]

I would be interested. this would basically be on the same lines as what I had in mind on another post. To make it work efficiently the mould and sizing die/bushing should come from the same manufacture. In my experiments with the Lee 312-155 I have taken a 2 cavity mould and removed the lube groves and sized a powder coated bullet by smashing it in a vise I ended up with fins because of nowhere for the flow of material to move.

There is two things I learned from this experiment 1) the size bushing/die will need to be slightly larger than the casting mould but not to large or the ironing effect of the powder coat will be irregular 2) Need to be aware how much sizing is needed before trying to size. The force needed to remove fro the sizer has to be accounted for. .002-.003 powder coat will more than likely work any larger will get stuck. Got to think volume not dimensions for full length sizing.

In my opinion this step will move powder coating from a child state to a teenage state. But I am scared of the cost to get there


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The mold was made by NOE, after purchasing the sizing die body NOE standard bushing run less than $10 each, which I think is a reasonable price. If he created a longer step bushing I am it would cost more, that would be up to him. If there is enough interest possibly multiple size bushings could be produced.

[DerekP Houston]

The mold was made by NOE, after purchasing the sizing die body NOE standard bushing run less than $10 each, which I think is a reasonable price. If he created a longer step bushing I am it would cost more, that would be up to him. If there is enough interest possibly multiple size bushings could be produced.

I'd be interested in a 308/30-06 version but fair warning I haven't used cast boolits in my rifle before.

[Dragonheart]

I'd be interested in a 308/30-06 version but fair warning I haven't used cast boolits in my rifle before.

I have done a lot of PC with handguns, but for rifle this is new to me also. I shot in competition years ago, so much so I got burned out, it is the PC that has gotten me interested in rifles again.

If Hillary gets into office casting may be the only thing we have to shoot.

[sinker402]

After looking at the drawing for this bullet it will have simular problems as I had with the lee bullet in my opinion there will be to much volume in the base with nowhere to flow.
My engineering background tells me to go top down design bottom up implemtation.
In other words design the final product desired then build it from the bottom up. start with the mould it will need to be dimensioned smaller .004 inches smaller on the circumference assuming .002 coating. The hight will have the same dimensional growth assuming a shake and bake method.
Now we are ready to size for uniformity barring any casting and powder coating inconsistancys.
Yes I am afraid of the cost!!!!

[Rich22]

Depending on cost and ease of use I would be in for it.

[Dragonheart]

I have no idea what NOE's cost is to set up for CNC production, but to create a longer bushing to fit an already existing die I would think a lot of the work is already done, it would require slightly longer stock. Since the idea is to build out the polymer a sufficient depth to perform the duties of a true jacket, multiple sized polymer coats seem to be the answer. The bullet possibly could be sized down in a one or two operations and the powder coating built out the same way. The thing I can see is the possibility of a establishing a process that could be applied to a line of Hi-Tech molds and bushings to increase the accuracy potential for other bullets, not just this one bullet design.

I like to shoot and I want to continue doing it. One thing Sandy Hook taught me and should have been a lesson for all gun owners is how quickly things can change and not for the better. Premium rifle bullets are already expensive and are only going to get more expensive. My last box of 30 caliber Nosler's was over $29 delivered for 50 bullets, just as well say $0.60 each, but they provide the best accuracy. So what is the worth if you could make a rifle bullet at home that provides reasonable accuracy for little more than the one time cost of the dies? Then what is the worth if it is your only source of bullets? For me it was worth quite a bit because that is the very reason I got into powder coating handgun bullets after Sandy Hook. I was shooting an IDPA match every week plus practice and the shelves were bare.

[popper]

D.H. it would be interesting to see your 100 yd pattern with that boolit. I have several years on you so my shooting isn't the greatest either. That aside, my comments are:
1) swaging - Can a swage die maker hold dimensions any better than a cast die maker? I.e., swaging doesn't automatically make a better boolit. Look at your sized boolits, you don't have concentricity of the size/unsized nose section.
2) That is a plain base boolit with no 'collector' groove. Sizing or through the barrel will mess up the base, you pushing a lot of alloy down to the base - calculate the volume! Also you may be getting slump on the nose.
3) PC in lube grooves weighs almost nothing. In fact, the weight of entire PC coating is nil. An uneven coating when 'sized' will cause imbalance of the alloy. Earlier this year I coated using an ES fluid bed and got a very consistent coating, sized, measured, coated & measured - 0.002" thick. Boolit was 31-142C PB RNFP from an AR 300BO. I got a 1" circle @ 100, 2100 fps, haven't tied to push faster - only 90% fill. That casting session I was tinkering with sprue cut timing and didn't get flat bases - it shows.
4) I'm not a mech. engg. but have worked with extruding/injection die makers a lot. The problems of sizing are similar and not all that simple. What is needed for NOE (or anyone) is a tapered alignment entrance, very small surface area sizing band without abrupt 'edges', slightly larger 'alignment' bands to prevent 'banana-ing'. Either a 'custom' full sizer or separate sections threaded together (to maintain dimensions). Cost/performance trade-off may not be worth it for some OPs.
Edit: Found a small snippit of info on strengthening poly fiber. "The parallel array of polymer chains in the liquid crystalline state becomes even more ordered when these solutions are subjected to shear." sic. shear is what the sizing does. Sorry, no source name for this article. Also no info on the increase in performance. Basically forcing a better alignment of moecular chains. As coating manufacturers spec., if using 2 coats, don't cure the first else bonding to the second won't be good.

[Rich22]

I have no idea what NOE's cost is to set up for CNC production, but to create a longer bushing to fit an already existing die I would think a lot of the work is already done, it would require slightly longer stock. Since the idea is to build out the polymer a sufficient depth to perform the duties of a true jacket, multiple sized polymer coats seem to be the answer. The bullet possibly could be sized down in a one or two operations and the powder coating built out the same way. The thing I can see is the possibility of a establishing a process that could be applied to a line of Hi-Tech molds and bushings to increase the accuracy potential for other bullets, not just this one bullet design.

I like to shoot and I want to continue doing it. One thing Sandy Hook taught me and should have been a lesson for all gun owners is how quickly things can change and not for the better. Premium rifle bullets are already expensive and are only going to get more expensive. My last box of 30 caliber Nosler's was over $29 delivered for 50 bullets, just as well say $0.60 each, but they provide the best accuracy. So what is the worth if you could make a rifle bullet at home that provides reasonable accuracy for little more than the one time cost of the dies? Then what is the worth if it is your only source of bullets? For me it was worth quite a bit because that is the very reason I got into powder coating handgun bullets after Sandy Hook. I was shooting an IDPA match every week plus practice and the shelves were bare.

Meant generally that the cost is not extreme, ridiculous etc. 20 bucks is nothing a couple hundred (highly unikely I realize for ths) is extreme for a piece of machined Steel. The main concern would be the additional time needed. if it is just sizing like we are all familiar with then no problem but if it requires multiple PC coats/multiple sizing operations then it could be an issue with the volume needed. I am to put it mildly, extremely familiar with this particular bullet and would be very interested in how to improve it and what your results are.

[Dutchninja]

Been working with 308 and 300 blackout loads with this specific Boolit, provided by Dragonheart. 50 yard accuracy, with different powders and with accurate rifles are not producing great accuracy at 50. Might be a decent 300 blackout trigger time / cheaper blaster ammo. But would like better accuracy if at all possible for 308, -06, 7.62X54R and X39, 7.5X55 Swiss, etc.

[Dragonheart]

Meant generally that the cost is not extreme, ridiculous etc. 20 bucks is nothing a couple hundred (highly unikely I realize for ths) is extreme for a piece of machined Steel. The main concern would be the additional time needed. if it is just sizing like we are all familiar with then no problem but if it requires multiple PC coats/multiple sizing operations then it could be an issue with the volume needed. I am to put it mildly, extremely familiar with this particular bullet and would be very interested in how to improve it and what your results are.

I totally agree with your point and I was waiting for someone to bring up the amount of time involved in making a homemade bullet that works. What I think it's going to take time-wise is beyond the usual powder coated handgun bullet's cast, coat and size operation.

In my present economic situation I can just order my bullet of choice for my rifles and that is the Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet, which has proven it's accuracy potential and taking game with a single shot, so why bother and spend the time when just about as perfect a bullet you can get is available over the counter?

The reason this project has gotten my interest is quite simple, I want to see if it can be done. Is it possible to make a homemade powder coated rifle bullet that will consistently rival one of the best production bullets? If not then how close can we get?

[Dragonheart]

Popper, I agree, your points bring out a lot of questions on can it be done and how. Limited sizing, at the best, is certainly not perfect, but what I have done so far can definitely be improved on. In fact this bullet coming out of the NOE mold is consistently more concentric than after my NOE nose and band sizing of the raw bullets.

The reason I started out attempting to size down the bullet is to allow a build out of the coating. It was my intention to use multiple partial cure coats on the band only then a single full cure clear coat on the entire bullet. The article you mentioned about sizing hardens the polymer is what our PhD suggested we do to improve the performance of the jacket and the reason we are going with multiple sized coats.

Your idea about using a fluid bed is interesting, as you pointed out a sized coating that is not uniform is just going to push the alloy and alter the bullet's center of gravity. I only mentioned that we don't need lube grooves to fill unevenly with coating was not that it altered the bullet's weight significantly, but in theory the aerodynamic shape of the bullet is altered. How much difference does that actually make? Who knows and at what range?

I also think you are dead on in needing a sizing die that will first align the bullet before sizing. As far as time and cost each to his own in that decision.

Since you asked I only kept the best 100 yard with target fired with this bullet, about 6" one M-1 clip; the other targets were worse. The raw bullets were band sized through a Lee die to .3085' (Lee die is off-not .308"), body spray coated partial cure & Lee band sized. Then single clear coat entire bullet tumble coated full cure & Lee band sized.
Attachment 175986

[OS OK]

Question Rich...Your first target and now this one look to me like barrel harmonics, the first one especially. The second looks like some shooter err in the horizontal when you let them go. We have to account for our own input with our older eyes and diminishing talents we once had.
I think we are so concentrated on BHN, boolit profile, lube or PC'ing process that we miss the opportunity to dial in a load as we would a store bought match round.
Have you considered trying the ladder test with these promising target results? Until we know for certain that we are shooting off a node, I think we err in laying it all on the boolit we are trying to perfect.

Does that make sense to you Rich, or do I err in reasoning?

charlie

[Dragonheart]

Charlie, you make an excellent point and since this was my very first outing with this PC bullet, I loaded what I felt would be a good starter load, based on a load with a similar weight premium copper jacketed bullet. It was my full intention to take this cast bullet to a new level and try to correct what I already knew was lack of concentricity of the cast bullet and with the application of the coating itself. I wanted to start the PC with as perfect of a raw bullet I could get to build on without going to complete swaging. Then do exactly what you suggested by bringing up the charge by half grains.

I know what I have tried on this bullet doesn't work and I now think if I want any more than band sizing I am going to have to make an elongated sizing die as popper suggested. I have ordered some reamers as I presently have nothing in the size range I need, so we will see how that goes. If I can start with a bullet close to what I want I plan to multi coat the band only. Since steel cases are available by the thousands I will just tack them to a piece of sheetmetal after sizing. The nose of this bullet should fit nicely in the mouth of the steel case and expose just the band for multiple spray coats.

It would be nice to have a better 30 caliber than the old Garand for testing, especially something with a high power target scope, but I had no plans to ever do anything in the rifle category again and got rid of my target rifles and their scopes, so it will have to do.

At least I am enjoying the project and maybe others will get interested.

[OS OK]

Well, Rich...you certainly inspired me to be more specific and I think you inspire others too. At least your dialogue is out there now for everyones consideration.
Keep up your excellent work Rich!
I'm sure that you are aware that it is hard to lead in search of perfection when most of the audience is satisfied with mediocre.

[popper]

These are PB boolits? Try cleaning the base of powder before cooking, GC or PB. Targets just look like old eyes to (like) me. If you have a lathe, a thread cutter tool (no auto advance) should do the job, just go back and flatten the thread tops to where you want. Polish to round off edges. You might try firing then pull a chambered round to check for nose damage/concentricy.

[Blanco]

Have there been any more testing with this PC boolit. I decided to give it a shot ... so to speak
I have several 30 cal rifles that I want to try with this boolit. My idea was to drive them a bit slower 1800~2000 fps and possibly some at subsonic speeds.
Just my personal opinion here but I have this idea in my head that 2000 fps is about the upper limit for a PB PC boolit. I am often wrong in my ideas but I truly believe that is the upper limit for a plain base cast projetile.