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Thread: Stevens 44

  1. #61
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Speaking as one who spent his career in one part or another of the manufacturing world, I stand in awe that Stevens managed to have such wild variation in bores, and yet their barrels were well reputed for their accuracy. But they sure do vary. My standout is a .32-20 with a groove diameter of .309", slugged and re-slugged because I didn't believe it. Even in the 1890s the tooling should never have allowed it.

    When Irving Page took over in 1896, the shop was still under 100 men, by all accounts, and yet in five years he was claiming to be the largest sporting firearms mfgr. in the world, with hundreds of thousands of square feet and a thousand men at work. You don't do that without problems. I've been speculating for some time that he must have done it on huge amounts of borrowed money, (he was after all Joshua Stevens' financial hand, not an engineer). I further speculate that the reason he lost the company to Westinghouse in 1915 was that the bankers had him by the short ones.

    Speaking to Bent Ramrod's Favorite: I believe that one huge reason it "shot loose" is that the links in the '94 models were never more than low carbon steel stampings, case hardened if they were hardened at all. They yielded like butter. (BTW that same is true of triggers and hammers. I cite an article reprinted in Kimmel's book as authority.) Adding metal to the lever to take the load off the linkage can do nothing but good. Chuck Deets did a set of force-vector analyses a while ago that show how the geometry of the action puts 70% of the thrust at the breech face onto the link!
    Cognitive Dissident

  2. #62
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    The stingy little links in the original Favorites were just a stamping of low-carbon steel, case-hardened. My replacement was a piece of tool steel, with drill rod link pins, that just cleared the top of the lever and the bottom of the block. It also took up all the space possible that still allowed the lever to close. Even it wasn’t up to the task, at least with Hi-Speed ammo.

    I don’t like the looks of the 1915 Favorite, but it at least has a slightly thicker link, and so should hold up better.

    A lot of those Kid Rifle designs were a tribute to what could be gotten away with if all you had were black powder .22s.

    What I do for the prop on the lever is to put the pins through the block and lever and insert them in their holes on the outside of the frame. The necessary metal thickness that would fill the space between bottom of block and lever top is measured with a caliper, and the radius of the top of the lever gauged likewise.

    I drill a piece of drill rod with a hole close to the diameter of the curvature at the top of the lever, then turn it down so the thickness of the remaining metal is that of the measurement I took between block and lever top, with a little extra, just in case. I cut the resulting tube off so it is just slightly wider than the bottom of the block.

    I lay the lever against one end of the tube, mark the slopes to the top of the radius, hacksaw and file off stock until the rest of the tube sits on top of the lever with full contact on both sides. I solder the piece to the top of the lever, and then hacksaw away the web over the link slot. I file the inside smooth so the link will rotate and file any excess on the outside of the lever until it fits in the receiver.

    I have on occasion made two “washers,” as shown in the photo, but soldering them on top of the lever, and getting both exactly right without leaning or twisting, is more work than cutting the excess off the one piece version. At least for me, anyway; a soldering/welding artist I am not. I even have trouble with glue sometimes.

    Then I reposition the lever/link/block assembly on the outside of the receiver again, using the new pins or bolts I have made, and see how much needs to be roughed off before the lever has a chance of closing. When that is done, I put Prussian Blue on the bottom of the block, put the assembly inside the frame, and keep trying to close the lever. I file ahead of the blue spots on the lever bolsters, feathering into the heaviest part of the blue spots, so that eventually the lever slips under the block with full contact. When the arrangement goes overcenter and the lever hits the tang, the job is finished. It can take a while.

    The rifles, so modified, have a definite change of feel when they are fired. With your fingers curled around the end of the lever, you can feel the shock of firing, even with a .22 Favorite.
    Last edited by Bent Ramrod; 12-24-2017 at 01:43 AM.

  3. #63
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    Chev. William's Avatar
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    Noted: I saw, and thought I saved, a Vector force analysis of the "Favorite" Action that indicated about 140% of the Breech face thrust was resisted by the Breech block Pivot bolt/Pin due to the angles and leverages in the mechanism.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  4. #64
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    That was the analysis that Chuck Deats did about a year ago. It assumes that the rear of the breechblock is not in contact with the shoulders in the frame. As time wore on, Stevens made less and less effort to establish this fit, especially for the rimfire models. When properly fitted, the breechblock pivot gets almost no load at all, (2nd drawing), but the link still gets hammered.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Force Diagram 001.JPG   Force Diagram 002.jpg  
    Cognitive Dissident

  5. #65
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    Yes, that is the vector analysis diagram I remembered.
    Thank you for Posting both Diagrams again.
    Best regards,
    Chev. William

  6. #66
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    That's very interesting. Do you know if he did an analysis of the 44 action with the hammer lug by chance?
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  7. #67
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Yes. Here it is. Needs to be qualified by saying that the hammer lug cannot be line-to-line with the underside of the breechblock, so there will be some displacement (and hence stress on the toggle) before the lug starts to take any load. Another point that needs to be made is that the breechblocks used for the six o'clock extractor are not suitable for the hammer lug. The underside contour is such that you get only line contact. The side extractor block was machined differently, (see the catalog cut).
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Force Diagram 004.jpg   lugbearing.jpg   DSCN1874.JPG  
    Cognitive Dissident

  8. #68
    Boolit Master
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    Interesting, I've got a pretty late #44 with a 6 O'clock extractor and a lug on the hammer. It's definitely not like the lugged hammer from the diagram, and it certainly seems to have done the job on the action it's part of, as it's about the tightest #44 actions I've handled, but this action has obviously seen a lot of use.
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  9. #69
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoZombies View Post
    Interesting, I've got a pretty late #44 with a 6 O'clock extractor and a lug on the hammer. It's definitely not like the lugged hammer from the diagram, and it certainly seems to have done the job on the action it's part of, as it's about the tightest #44 actions I've handled, but this action has obviously seen a lot of use.
    Please, please post some closeup photos of the underside of the breechblock where the lug would bear. I have logged other lugged-hammer 44s with the six o'clock extractor, and I'm anxious to know if they machined that differently from the normal central-extractor breechblocks. Have yet to see one in the flesh. If they did it right, the machining should look something like the catalog cut I posted.
    Cognitive Dissident

  10. #70
    Boolit Master
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    Unsupported Theorizing:
    Perhaps a Lugged 6 O'clock Extractor type model 44 might have a modified main cut with a small second cut to give the "lug" a place to fit with good bearing area?

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 07-17-2018 at 11:17 PM. Reason: Correwcted Typo error

  11. #71
    Boolit Master
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    well think about this what is eaiser to replace? a pin or some other major part. I can replace pins all day long. but to have to make a breach block or leaver while is doable. I would rather put new pins in.

  12. #72
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    Please, please post some closeup photos of the underside of the breechblock where the lug would bear. I have logged other lugged-hammer 44s with the six o'clock extractor, and I'm anxious to know if they machined that differently from the normal central-extractor breechblocks. Have yet to see one in the flesh. If they did it right, the machining should look something like the catalog cut I posted.

    It'll be a couple of days, but I'll get some photos once I'm done recovering from having all the family over for the Holiday.
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  13. #73
    Boolit Master
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    Well, I managed to pull the old 44 out and tear it down to get some photos, but while doing so realized it's a substantially different beast internally than any other 44 I've messed with.

    To start out, the hammer is lugged, as mentioned, though it's a small undercut lug. The breach block does seem to be machined to provide contact along the top surface of the lug. I thought I had gotten a better photo of the underside of the block, but apparently I didn't, and the rifle is back together and in the safe again now, so I'll have to do that the next time it's out.

    But perhaps more interestingly, this action does have a spring and plunger assembly in the lever to keep the lever tight against the action, and provide a 'snap' when extracting the cartridges. Part of the plunger is visible in the first photo, with the second photo giving a clearer view of it.

    The plunger works very well in conjunction with the small lug, as I said, the action is as tight as I've ever felt on a 44. it's kind of reassuring having the tang 'snap' back into place as you raise it.


    Last edited by NoZombies; 01-02-2018 at 05:57 AM.
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  14. #74
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    That plunger in the lever setup was standard issue in the 44 1/2 design, and it turns out that the only other difference in the levers is the lever pivot hole. If you take a 44 1/2 lever and open the hole up for the 44 pivot bolt, it will fit right in. If the rifle was built in the factory after 1903, the feature could have been included along with the lugged hammer. (I'm more than a little sure that a lugged hammer combined with the six o'clock extractor would have been a custom build at that late date, so anything's possible.) OR it could be a gunsmith's improvement, being so easy to do.
    Cognitive Dissident

  15. #75
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    Cool differnt 25 stevens slugged barrel sizes

    Quote Originally Posted by Chev. William View Post
    I have one Stevens model 44 barrel that is marked ".25 R F" that i have 'slugged' again and it measures .246" bore and .250' groove diameters. I used a fairly new "Lyman" Dial Caliper to measure the slug. the bottom of the barrel is marked "3582(?) 2 L. G." and has a patent date of "APR. 17, 94" on the top flat of the half Octagon. This Barrel has a "6 O'Clock" extractor cut.

    It seems My, and Uscra112 barrels, differ in Bore / Groove dimensions.

    Now I wonder Why? Why would J. Stevens use tow differing Bore and groove dimensions for the "same Cartridge"?

    I have had this barrel chamber reamed to take my wildcat .250ALRM Cartridge which uses .250"-251" diameter bullets in a 1.250" long CF case of .276", or nominal .278", Body diameter (my sizing dies yield a .276" diameter case from my swaging down .22 Hornet cases or 5.7x28mm cases).




    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    I have been following your developments for the 25 stevens rf.. I have three barrels one model 44 pre 1916 as reads stevens a and t co. vary worn bore, slugs 243 with micrometer.. a favorite barrel that only states 25 rimfire vary good to excellent bore, slugs 257 and finally a marksman barrel that only states 25 rimfire, with a good to vary good bore that slugs at 257.. I am using 55 grain cast 257 bullits that measure just under 258 with my micrometer to slug

  16. #76
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    And just to muddle the waters still further......I took delivery today of a very, very nice 44 in .25 Stevens. So nice that I'm ashamed to say how little I paid.

    Bore is virtually mint, rifling still sharp, and it slugged .255, like some others that have been reported here.

    Phil

    BTW I'm finding 44s with the Stevens stamp on the side of the receiver, which ought to be a sure sign that it's a post-war build, yet they have the pre-war rollstamp on the barrel. Not just one - two or three. Was Savage using up pre-war barrel stocks? Seems so.
    Cognitive Dissident

  17. #77
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    BTW I have also acquired a near-mint 44 in .32-40 with the central extractor. Underside of the breechblock is cut just the same as every other central extractor block I've eve3r seen. So they didn't, at least on this one, make any change to the breechblock machining to give the lug something to get purchase on.
    Cognitive Dissident

  18. #78
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    (I'm more than a little sure that a lugged hammer combined with the six o'clock extractor would have been a custom build at that late date, so anything's possible.)
    My log has blown that theory out of the water. By far the most .32-40s I've logged since I wrote that are in fact in the 27000 to 30000 range, and have the central extractor.
    Cognitive Dissident

  19. #79
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    Stevens barrel and other notes.

    Adding to the "Mess", I purchased a Barrel marked "J. Stevens Arms Co." and "25-STEVENS" for a 'Favorite' Action that my Gunsmith 'Slugged' and measured it as having .250" Bore and .254" Groove diameters. Very clean and shiny rifling full length with a conical champfered muzzle crown.

    Confusing and Intriguing Measurements.

    I also found on Ebay, and bought, some new Manufacture CNC machined 4140 cr alloy 1915 Favorite Breech Blocks. I am having two modified by adding 'weld pads' added to the rear side edges to allow tightly fitting them to the rear Action shoulders in the receivers. At the same time he is supposed to convert them from .22RF to CF firing pin tip position.
    There are still some up for sale on Ebay as of last night.

    If anyone is curious, .22 Hornet or 5.7x28mm cases CAN be swaged down to .22 Long rifle RF cartridge diameters successfully. This is a confirmation of a Project started by 'NoZombies' and documented in another Thread on this Forum. Also .25ACP can be swaged down to the same .22 Long Rifle Rf diameters and if you stop at .250" diameter, they can be used to make either .221 Atkins (CF) or .22 Winchester Auto. (RF) CF conversion cases.

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 07-18-2018 at 09:40 PM. Reason: add thread subscription. clarify text.

  20. #80
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    I used one of those new 4140 blocks to convert a .32 Long RF 1915 to centerfire. Guy did a fine job on them. He had 'em on Gunbroker, happily. I won't do business with evilBay.

    Unless you are needing to preserve headspace to an existing barrel, better to just elongate the pivot hole by a few thousandths so the block can set back into contact with the shoulders. I did a 44 by the weld-up method some years ago, and what an awful chore it was, trying to fit it properly. I never did get it really right, and eventually binned it.

    I'm going to have to beef up the hammer spring on this new 44. The .17 WMR ammo I'm converting to .25 Stevens has thicker/harder brass than your ordinary rimfires, and the hammer blow from the OEM Stevens spring isn't enough to fire it reliably. Fortunately I have some springs from Wisner's which are stronger. If I can find them.
    Cognitive Dissident

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check