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View Poll Results: Backpacking and 25 yards hunting handgun 45 ACP, 45 Super, 10mm?

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Thread: Backpacking and 25 yards hunting handgun 45 ACP, 45 Super, 10mm?

  1. #81
    Boolit Master



    jmort's Avatar
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    "Autos are far more reliable than revolvers and generally lighter."

    Where do people come up with idiotic notions like this? I suppose you might say "In my opinion, semi-automatic handguns are more reliable than revolvers" if you wanted to state an opinion. "Far more reliable" - what a joke.
    Last edited by jmort; 09-10-2016 at 11:00 PM.
    "Had his shooting been as good as his running, he might have given a better account of himself."
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  2. #82
    Boolit Master robertbank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmort View Post
    "Autos are far more reliable than revolvers and generally lighter."

    Where do people come up with idiotic notions like this? I suppose you might say "In my opinion, semi-automatic handguns are more reliable than revolvers" if you wanted to state an opinion. "Far more reliable" - what a joke.
    Well there seems to be no amount of idiots who think otherwise. Try firing 1K rounds of ammo through your revolver and let us know when it fails. Better yet, load a cartridge with a slight burr on the rim and see how you make out. Drop the gun in some mud or sand and try firing. Armies didn't switch to semi autos because they failed more than revolvers do. S&W Model 66 weighs in at 36oz with a 4" barrel while a Glock 17 with a longer barrel comes in at 25oz. Anything else?

    Take Care

    Bob
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff0000]Je suis Charlie

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  3. #83
    Boolit Man


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramjet-SS View Post
    Well except the habitants of mobile meth labs and Mary Jo grow operations. Plus Black Bears are just giant raccoons .....
    ramjet,
    Funny thing about the mary jane growing operations, 6 years ago a friend and I were bear baiting in an area in the Nicolet that had growing operations busted the year before. Bears may be just giant raccoons, but the 41/ 44 makes me feel better than the 357.

  4. #84
    Boolit Master
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    jHeath, a consultant for the firearm industry you most certainly are not.

    First, there aren't any 1.5 lb autoloaders that shoot 310 grain bullets at any speed which sort of makes your whole argument moot. How does admitting they do not exist validate your point? Seen any instances of such that supports your claim? No? Neither has anybody else.

    Because the whole cartridge is free to move slightly, bullet pull is not a problem as it is with lightweight revolvers that hold their cartridges in a fixed relationship to the cylinder and allow recoil forces to yank on the bullet.

    Second, there is little room for cartridges in autoloader magazines to gain much speed before they hit the front of the magazine, because spring tension and frictional forces prevent the cartridge from doing so, combined with the tiny distance they are free to move. Thus they do not shorten in the magazine when fired, either.

    Feel free to cite observed instances of auto loading pistols shortening rounds when fired because of magazine movement. Try to do your best not to relate relatively low powered pistols to elephant guns while you are at it. Pistol cartridges are also much smaller and lighter and have both less inertia and less momentum. Pistols also have considerably stiffer magazine springs than rifle do. All these factors conspire together to keep cartridges in auto loading pistol magazines from moving with much force under recoil.

    Next time you posit a theory about a problem, make sure it actually happens in guns that actually exist.

    Since you admit you don't know crimping is a factual problem, why not wait until somebody actually has a problem with it before claiming it will be problem instead of making something up that you cannot support?
    Last edited by 35remington; 09-12-2016 at 07:40 PM.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydub in wi View Post
    ramjet,
    Funny thing about the mary jane growing operations, 6 years ago a friend and I were bear baiting in an area in the Nicolet that had growing operations busted the year before. Bears may be just giant raccoons, but the 41/ 44 makes me feel better than the 357.
    Probably not far from where I Live if it was in the Tornado area and yes I carry my model 20 and my newly acquired 44 Ruger 2.5" snubby. Not always at the same time......

  6. #86
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    Once the cartridges are in the gun and the cylinder is closed, safe money is on the revolver completing the firing of all rounds in the cylinder without a jam or misfire over the autoloader finishing all the rounds in the magazine without a jam.....for the simple reason the rounds in the revolver don't have to feed, extract or eject.

    They just lie there until struck by the firing pin.

    Whether six rounds with more power is better than eight or ten or fifteen with less power presumes you do or do not have time to shoot six or ten or fifteen times. No one will know that beforehand.

  7. #87
    Boolit Master



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    I would rather have one six foot long wound channel over two three foot long wound channels.
    "Had his shooting been as good as his running, he might have given a better account of himself."
    James. C. Henderson

  8. #88
    Boolit Master robertbank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    Once the cartridges are in the gun and the cylinder is closed, safe money is on the revolver completing the firing of all rounds in the cylinder without a jam or misfire over the autoloader finishing all the rounds in the magazine without a jam.....for the simple reason the rounds in the revolver don't have to feed, extract or eject.

    They just lie there until struck by the firing pin.

    Whether six rounds with more power is better than eight or ten or fifteen with less power presumes you do or do not have time to shoot six or ten or fifteen times. No one will know that beforehand.
    If the revolver gets drop[ped in sand all bets are off. If you own a Ruger BH and load six 45acp cartridges and one has a burr on the rim you won;t find out the gun jams until the cylinder starts turning as I found out to my displeasure when I went out with my gun for the first time. The comment remains, revolvers simply are not as reliable as auto loaders. Revolvers don't have to feed, extract or eject BUT the cylinder still has to turn. In any event the issue of reliability was decided long ago in favour of the semi auto.

    Take Care

    Bob
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    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  9. #89
    Boolit Master
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    Bob, I don't think so, certainly not when speaking of rounds in the gun. When properly fitting rimmed rounds are used it is easy to determine if the round will fire correctly beforehand. It certainly is not an unknowable thing.

    My observation, shared by many others, is the transition to autoloader by police and civilians was done for firepower reasons. The issue of reliability had little to nothing to do with it.

    Given the round chambers in the first place smart money is on the revolver successfully firing the rounds without a jam over the autoloader. Even the Glock fanboys admit their guns jam. Forums are rife with complaints that limp wristing jams the gun, it won't feed certain bullets, won't quite go into battery, forget to seat the magazines, gun locks open with rounds remaining in the magazine, etc (see, for example, the limp wristing thread on m4carbine.net. I am not entirely convinced all those jams are solely due to limp wristing but something is making the dern guns jam).

    Can't remember the last time any of my revolvers failed to turn the cylinder when using proper rimmed rounds. Bet nobody else can either. Moon clipped revolvers are admittedly more jam prone. I don't use them for serious purposes and recommend you discontinue their use as well. Using rimless cartridges in revolvers is also a mistake in terms of reliability from my experience.

    I shoot many different modern autos and revolvers as well as oldies. Across the board, new guns and old, and speaking of the rounds already in the cylinder versus those in the magazine, the revolver has a far better record of never jamming no matter what.

    If your gun is in the mud the bear is already on you and you're disarmed.

    I do consider myself an autoloader guy and carry one for many purposes (not bear hunting) but really, over what is now getting to be a decently experienced lifespan revolvers win this one given ammo is in the gun.

    Now, given the reload, I have lots of room to jam the revolver or drop my ammo. Hope I have solved any problems before then.

    I hope we are talking about the same thing as you may be talking about reliability from a different cycle of events, but give me a loaded gun to start with and odds favor the revolver over all autoloader challengers. Just my now fairly considerable experience.

  10. #90
    Boolit Master
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    Regarding bear encounters, anyone have any statistics on how most attacks unfold? From what I have read, and the few I've seen (not in person) having a lanyard on the pistol butt would be helpful, maybe.

    If you get cuffed around and aren't immediately killed at least you still have your pistol. Even if empty it is a club. In that situation I would be glad I had a pistol of almost any caliber.

    Given where I live, I am far more likely to be assaulted by a Harley than a black bear.

  11. #91
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    I just wanted to chime in and say I've had many more malfunctions with autos than revolvers, for the reasons 35remington espoused: the round doesn't have to feed and eject each time. Fewer things to go wrong. Autos have advantages, too, though.
    Rule 303

  12. #92
    Boolit Master robertbank's Avatar
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    Here is a link that you can use,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._North_America


    I think the biggest issue involved is how fast you can get the gun into play. To many think in terms of hunting vs being ambushed by a bear at distances of less than 15 yards. There is a guide up here who carries and uses a 500 S&W to protect his clients. I have seen him shoot the revolver and he is very good. He offered me the opportunity to empty the gun on a bear silhouette. I fired one round and that was enough for me. He shot it about as fast as I can shoot a .357mag and remain on target. His situation is different as he would know where the bear was. In surprise encounters I suspect most would never get that gun out of the holster.

    I live where bears live and car accidents will get me before any bear is likely to.

    Take Care

    Bob
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff0000]Je suis Charlie

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  13. #93
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    LAR Grizzly in 45 Win Mag = autoloader in 44mag power range.
    They also came in 357 mag, 44mag and 50AE as well as others.
    They did weigh about 3#, so no, not a 1.5# 44mag auto.

    http://www.gunbroker.com/item/583488432

    Now as for the choice of revolvers, are we talking single or double action?
    I have many single actions, but it would seem that a double might be the better way to go.
    If your strong hand becomes injured, you'll still need to be able to shoot the beast(revolver) with your off hand. 50 cal revolvers? I have 3, but I don't think that I want to shoot full power 500S&W loads left handed.
    So my vote is for a 4-5.5" Ruger Super Red Hawk in 480.

  14. #94
    I think the 6" 41 mag option sounds good.

    Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk

  15. #95
    Boolit Master
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    If speaking revolvers I would have to go with a double action as well. Shooting then cocking the gun with the thumb loosens my grip on the piece when I might really need to have a good hold on it, and I personally shoot a double action revolver faster.

    Still would rather have almost any gun than no gun, but those Harleys will get me before any bear does.

  16. #96
    Boolit Master

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    As a Glock fanboy that owns 4 of them I can say they do break. My G21F and G22 both had trigger return springs break. My G35 USPSA gun had a fireing pin deform and get light strikes. Those three guns are high round count guns. My biggest concern with the autoloader is the ammo. I have made defective ammo before and when its a little long you can get a slide lockup. Than you have to bang on it to clear.
    My S&W686 surplus has be reliable though I only have maybe 1000 rounds thru it mostly light charges of BE or Unique. That said in bear country I would buy a G20sf since I shoot Glocks well and the biggest threats are humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmort View Post
    "Autos are far more reliable than revolvers and generally lighter."

    Where do people come up with idiotic notions like this? I suppose you might say "In my opinion, semi-automatic handguns are more reliable than revolvers" if you wanted to state an opinion. "Far more reliable" - what a joke.

  17. #97
    Boolit Master huntersdog's Avatar
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    I went with the .460 Rowland conversion and it is a really nice round with the comp on it. Shot some Underwood ammo and the gun ran like a clock and the recoil was very minimal and accurate ate 25 yards, which is about where I'll be shooting from.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmort View Post
    I would rather have one six foot long wound channel over two three foot long wound channels.
    ^^THIS.

    Listen, all... I'm the biggest 10mm supporter the world has ever seen... and I voted 10mm ... but if there were grizzly bears in the area, I'd rather have a diesel powered .44 mag (even a SINGLE ACTION) revolver than a 10mm with 10-20 rounds .... here is why: You want EVER round that is fired to do MAXIMUM damage ... as you might not get more than one shot off. Make that round be a .44 mag WFN cast bullet that rips a two inch diameter hole 6 FEET through tough bear hide, organs and bone.... since the 10mm, while, they would LIKELY do the job just fine (properly loaded with WFNGC bullets at 1300+ fps in 200-225 gr loads)... would you bet your LIFE on that?

    For ANYTHING other than bear DEFENSE situations, I'd go 10mm all the way (including, even, the HUNTING of black bear but not grizzly, as hunting from a stand and being able to pick your shot from safety on an unsuspecting bear is different than defending a pissed off sow...)

  19. #99
    Boolit Master

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    Those wouldn't be my favorite choices just moving from AK, but outta the 3, a G20.

  20. #100
    Boolit Master robertbank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickE10mm View Post
    ^^THIS.

    .....and being able to pick your shot from safety on an unsuspecting bear is different than defending a pissed off sow.. at 7 yards or less)
    Fixed it for you.

    Take Care

    Bob
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