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View Poll Results: Backpacking and 25 yards hunting handgun 45 ACP, 45 Super, 10mm?

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Thread: Backpacking and 25 yards hunting handgun 45 ACP, 45 Super, 10mm?

  1. #61
    Boolit Master
    ghh3rd's Avatar
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    Just be sure to wear bells to alert the bears that you are nearby, so you don't surprise them!
    Five out of six doctors agree that Russian Roulette is completely safe.

  2. #62
    Boolit Master
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    Oh oh! I just did a search about how to identify bear scat.

    Bear scat varies tremendously, given the variation in bear diets. ... To identify bear scat, look closely in scats and in many cases you will find little bells, thereby determining the likelihood that it is in fact bear scat.
    Five out of six doctors agree that Russian Roulette is completely safe.

  3. #63
    Boolit Master robertbank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    Bob: What is the deal with pistols in Canada? I thought they were outlawed?

    But there are some that are OK?

    or is it Province by Province?

    What gives?

    Randy
    Handguns with a barrel length of =<105MM are prohibitive. Over 105MM they are restricted primarily to range use. At last count there were approx. 800,00 restricted firearms registered in Canada. You have to take a course to get a Possession and Acquisition License. Each and every time you purchase restricted firearm a current background check is made. I have approx. q5 assorted handguns, all of which are registered. The Firearms Act is Federal Legislation and is administered by each of the Provinces.

    For more detailed information Google :Canadian Firearms Act or go here:

    http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/f-11.6/

    Handguns are not outlawed in Canada. Their use though is pretty much restricted to range activity. There are a few exceptions. Handgun ownership is not widespread in Canada, nor has it ever been. Firearm ownership is widespread and growing as is handgun ownership.

    I suspect you probably wish you had not asked. :>)

    Take Care

    Bob
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff0000]Je suis Charlie

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  4. #64
    Boolit Master
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    I love these threads.

    Black bears are fast I regularly encounter them where I live. In fact I have treed and pepper sprayed several,of them to discourage them from coming back into the yard. Many have said how fast they are and I will tell you they are lighting fast and are faster than Mr. Bolt in a short fast sprint. Generally they are not looking to fight or attack and will with discouragement usually retreat. Not always.

    Awareness
    Avoidence
    Flight
    Fight

    In that order.

    Those comparing the effectiveness of the 44 vs the 10MM in a Glock?

    I Own both I shoot allot, I mean many thousands of rounds in SD drills and can tell you that for me I can put more rounds on target faster with the model 20 Glock than I can with the Ruger Back Packer 44 snubby. Now loading the 44 with a 180 grain XTP helps allot to calm down the snubby and make double action fire more manageable. But give me the 14 round magazine vs 6 any day. The 10mm is no slouch with 200 Grain hard cast loaded over a good dose of Longshot or AA #7 is a decent penetrator. As is the 200 grain XTP.

    I have had had several bluff charges from Black Bears and I know they were bluff because I am typing this. But in one case the encounter involved surprised mother BB three Cubs and my Mountain Bike. Believe me when I say they are fast and just really are no more interested in fighting than you are. Stay calm be smart and in this case Imused my Mountain Bike as a defensive tool. Yup no gun!!!!!! I sure wish had one but my awareness is what helped divert an ugly encounter.

    No gun works if you do not make the shots and total disruption of the central nervous system is what's incapacitated any mammal so shots on target is important if no other options are available.

    Carry ry on like I said I love these threads ....... !

  5. #65
    Boolit Master robertbank's Avatar
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    Ramjet you bring up an interesting point. A few years back my oldest son, 6'2" and I were off fishing salmon. On our way we had to cross CN train tracks. As we crossed,. up wind about 100 yards or so rose a sow with a cub. She was up on her legs with a nose searching the air. I am sure se saw us but could not make us out. I had Gord stand behind me and raise his hands high. I stood in front of him with my hands out to my sides. I figured if we looked as big or bigger than she was she might just leave us be. After a couple of minutes of blind mans bluff she sat down on all fours and wandered off. There is no healthcare in the wild and faced with a larger opponent I suspect she figured she might be better off not challenging us. In this case it worked. Who knows? I do know that was the last time I have gone fishing without my Mossburg 12gauge in hand with something less effective with me as well. I presently do not have a Wilderness Permit for an handgun. If the bear attacks because they are hungry well, larger might just mean a bigger meal.

    Take Care

    Bob
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff0000]Je suis Charlie

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertbank View Post
    Handguns with a barrel length of =<105MM are prohibitive. Over 105MM they are restricted primarily to range use. At last count there were approx. 800,00 restricted firearms registered in Canada. You have to take a course to get a Possession and Acquisition License. Each and every time you purchase restricted firearm a current background check is made. I have approx. q5 assorted handguns, all of which are registered. The Firearms Act is Federal Legislation and is administered by each of the Provinces.

    For more detailed information Google :Canadian Firearms Act or go here:

    http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/f-11.6/

    Handguns are not outlawed in Canada. Their use though is pretty much restricted to range activity. There are a few exceptions. Handgun ownership is not widespread in Canada, nor has it ever been. Firearm ownership is widespread and growing as is handgun ownership.

    I suspect you probably wish you had not asked. :>)

    Take Care

    Bob
    No I am always interested in how my Bros in the north are getting along with their insane liberal govt. Too bad that the big cities pretty much run everything but that is not peculiar to Canada. We have it here in California and New York and Mass and IL and more everyday.

    I was watching Bill Mahr's show one night and he had the new Minister of the Interior on his panel,,, this was right after Trudeau took over.

    Mind you Bill Mahr is a pretty liberal guy, but even he was taken back by this women's ideas on how things needed to be. She literally wanted to take in millions of Syrian Refugees and finally he was making faces at her as the stuff coming out of her mouth was so Batship crazy even the audience was reacting. This is no conservative show, and in fact it is considered to be pretty far left so she was out there in la la land.

    It is good to hear that the gun ownership is increasing. You guys live in a sportsman's paradise and the idea that you can't carry a sidearm for a backup when hiking in bear country is kind of over reactionary and I would love to see the country swing back to the right a little more, as I have entertained thoughts of living there.

    But that probably ain't gonna happen either cuz right now I have lived my entire life 200 miles away from snow and am typing this in shorts and flip flops.

    But I would like to visit. Too bad I can't bring a pistol,,, but maybe they would let me in with my #4 Mk1*Long Branch since it is Canadian.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  7. #67
    Boolit Master robertbank's Avatar
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    Randy you would be more than welcome. You can bring your gun in for competitions but that is it. None of the Provinces allow handgun hunting anymore so that is out now. For competitions the gun still has to have a barrel length over 105MM.

    Yes we will have Turdo and his wife the Duchess of Canada for at least another 3 years. Hopefully it will be a one term wonder but I fear he may be around for two terms. I hated his father and the son is even worse. Oh well, the country will survive one way or another. Politicians are just that, politicians and they are the same on both sides of the 49th. As soon as their lips start moving they are lying. Choose what you like hearing, but don't expect much beyond that.

    You want to come up and do some salmon fishing take a look at the Skeena river in July.

    Take Care

    Bob
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff0000]Je suis Charlie

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  8. #68
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post

    I was watching Bill Mahr's show one night and he had the new Minister of the Interior on his panel,,, this was right after Trudeau took over.

    Mind you Bill Mahr is a pretty liberal guy, but even he was taken back by this women's ideas on how things needed to be. She literally wanted to take in millions of Syrian Refugees and finally he was making faces at her as the stuff coming out of her mouth was so Batship crazy even the audience was reacting.
    Randy
    Gee, Bill Mahr is a pretty liberal guy? And I have been thinking he is a satanic POS. Go figure.
    Rule 303

  9. #69
    Boolit Master JHeath's Avatar
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    The OP is set on an auto pistol. I prefer autos generally.

    But re some of the comments, revolvers allow large meplat boolits with heavy crimps. And revolvers don't have FTFs, don't stovepipe, and move right past a misfire.

    Autos limit meplat size and bullet weight, and headspacing on the case mouth can complicate crimping heavy loads or cast boolits. Heaven forbid one gets in a wrestling match with any animal, but pull the trigger on an auto when the slide nose is against something (the animal, the ground when you stumble, etc.) and out of battery, or if your jacket etc obstructs the ejection port, and you get a stoppage.

    In town I wouldn't carry a revolver, don't like the bulk and figure I can make a middling power pistol work.

    I spent 3 months in brown bear country, only saw one but it's a lonely feeling when you're out of contact and the nearest help is a long hike and 40 minute skiff ride away. I'm disinclined to play games in that situation. I would lean toward 6 of heavy .44 SWCs rather than pumping umpteen 10mms at a bear that might have just stepped out of the berry patch 6' from me, for the same reasons I would lean toward 5 rounds of .338 or even .30-06/220 over a magazine full of 7.62x39.

    But there are arguments for both sides.

  10. #70
    Boolit Master robertbank's Avatar
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    JHeath what you have to think about is you are not hunting generally when you find yourself in this situation. While I carry a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with a slug and three balls, you need something you can get into action in about 2 seconds up here. I would suggest, as some have found out to their peril, (two Elk Hunters in central BC) that long guns are to clumsy when time is the essence, rifle was found with a jammed round in the breach with one round fired - a miss.

    Autos are far more reliable than revolvers and generally lighter. That said, one of my friends carries a 5" 460 revolver, a gun that has dispatched a Grizzly in the Yukon. The bear was a camp bear and not one charging out of the bushes. He had a Wilderness Permit due to his Bush Pilot occupation. Another friend here dispatches Black Bears, about one every two years with his SKS. Again bear in his chicken coop, not a charge. Those bears get buried quietly at the back of his property. Personally I would carry the 10MM Glock over my GP-100 or 45Colt IF the local Chief Firearms Officer would allow autos on a Wilderness Permit and if I owned a 10MM Glock

    There is only .051 hundreds of an inch difference between the 10MM and 45 Colt assuming both are loaded with hard cast lead bullets and I would expect the 10MM would penetrate deeper. Both would do, but I suspect you could empty 10 rounds of 10MM into a bear twice as fast as you could six rounds of 45 Colt and you will unload the gun before you play tag team with the bruin.

    All of this is just speculation because most of us will never be in a position where it matters. Bear threads are fun though.

    Take Care

    Bob
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff0000]Je suis Charlie

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  11. #71
    Boolit Master pmer's Avatar
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    The 10mm has the advantage of sectional density over some of the 45 ACP style boolits. I think you have get into the 270 grain territory for 45 cal to match 220 grain 10mm in density.

    Here is a moving target you guys might get a kick out of. It rolls down a hill towards you like a charging critter.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjUPWi9krro
    Recent cast boolit hunts:
    buck & doe, Accurate Molds 36-225AG Model 94AE
    Russian Boar Accurate Molds 46-405A Marlin 45-70
    doe 32 Win. Spl. 1920's Winchester model 1894 rifle

  12. #72
    Boolit Master JHeath's Avatar
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    Robert, I wasn't suggesting carrying a rifle instead of a handgun. I was only saying that -- like most people -- if we were talking rifles, I would opt for a powerful bolt rifle over a less-powerful semiauto rifle and more rounds.

    Which is analagous to the revolver/auto choice.

    I totally share your preference for flatter, lighter pistols. I have zero interest in humping a 4-lb revolver, and a Glock 20 that's on your hip is infinitely better than the Redhawk back in the tent.

    I handled a 329PD the other day and am interested. I wouldn't load it full-house, but it will feed big, flat bullets that autopistols won't handle, and it's very light.

    (BTW, I've had dunno how many stoppages with semiautos. I'm trying to remember when something comparable happened with a revolver. I never had one jump the crimp).

    Conventional hunting wisdom is universally in favor of a smaller number of more-effective bullets. You can't legally take an SKS to hunt the big five in Africa, or argue that better shot placement means you should be allowed to hunt Cape Buff with your .25-06 rather than the mandatory .375+

    You can't get one of those giant 310gr flatnose boolits out of an autopistol. The flatter the bullet, the more you increase the odds of an FTF. A revolver will feed any shape bullet, every time.

    An autopistol with equal power to a revolver looks like a Desert Eagle, because it is one. At some point if you keep driving up the horsepower, crimping will become an issue esp. with boolits.

    But I totally understand the reasoning behind using a 10mm or .45-08 and it appeals to me a lot. There are arguments on both sides. But the default in confronting dangerous game has pretty much always been for power over volume of rounds, and there's probably a good reason for that.

  13. #73
    Boolit Bub Chapo's Avatar
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    My experience backpacking comes from Alaska. I would never leave the house without my 44 magnum revolver!

  14. #74
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    Crimping is not an issue with auto loader rounds. Forces of recoil do not affect cartridge integrity as with revolvers. Suggesting crimp is a factor with auto loaders for that reason is a mistaken assertion.

  15. #75
    Boolit Master robertbank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    Crimping is not an issue with auto loader rounds. Forces of recoil do not affect cartridge integrity as with revolvers. Suggesting crimp is a factor with auto loaders for that reason is a mistaken assertion.
    Yes but if the crimp applied does not eliminate the belling applied to the case prior to the taper crimp being applied an auto can quit functioning in a hurry. Not the same issue as sometimes found in revolvers though. I do a lot of practice and every once in a while, and it is rare given the amount of shooting I do, the crimp applied does not completely remove the belling and a jam occurs. I always check my competition rounds but practice,,,not so much.

    I have had my Blackhawk choke when loading 45acp due to a barb on the rim of a case. This happened early on right after I bought the gun. Since then I keep all my 45acp brass used in the revolver separate from my auto brass. No issues since.

    Take Care

    Bob
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff0000]Je suis Charlie

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  16. #76
    Boolit Master
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    As I said, power levels in autoloader rounds aren't affecting the need for crimp as was implied. It is a feed reliability thing in the need to crimp but power has nothing to do with it

  17. #77
    Boolit Man


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    Of the choices given, I voted 10mm. That being said, I'm a revolver guy. After seeing the results of the 357, 41, and 44 mags, my comfort level is at 41 on up. When I am hiking in northern Wi or Michigan's UP, I carry my 41 or 44 mag with cast loads. When not in bear country, I carry my 357 because the worst thing here are raccoons. I'm no authority on anything, but those are my thoughts.

  18. #78
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydub in wi View Post
    Of the choices given, I voted 10mm. That being said, I'm a revolver guy. After seeing the results of the 357, 41, and 44 mags, my comfort level is at 41 on up. When I am hiking in northern Wi or Michigan's UP, I carry my 41 or 44 mag with cast loads. When not in bear country, I carry my 357 because the worst thing here are raccoons. I'm no authority on anything, but those are my thoughts.
    Well except the habitants of mobile meth labs and Mary Jo grow operations. Plus Black Bears are just giant raccoons .....

  19. #79
    Boolit Master JHeath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    As I said, power levels in autoloader rounds aren't affecting the need for crimp as was implied. It is a feed reliability thing in the need to crimp but power has nothing to do with it
    A Smith 329PD weighs 1.6lbs and can launch a 310gr bullet at about 1100fps.

    If you could launch a 310gr bullet from a 1.5lb autoloader at 1100fps, would bullet setback of the bottom rounds in the mag be a potential issue? I think it would.

    At some point, power:weight will make crimping an issue in autoloaders with boolits. Because you can't roll crimp due to headspacing, and taper crimping could swage down the boolit, or be insufficient to prevent setback.

    I don't know that crimping is an issue for a fact. And I don't think you know for a fact that it's not an issue, unless you have tested a 1.6lb autoloader with that kind of power.

    If you say no such pistol exists, that is my point. Autoloaders either are less powerful than revolvers, or more heavy, or both.



    Bullet setback in the magazine is also supposed to be a potential issue with hard-recoiling bolt rifles.

    I don't think anybody would chose an M1 carbine for elk over a .30-06, then argue that 15 rounds will bring down an elk.

    I don't think anybody would chose an M1 Garand for Cape Buffalo over a .470 Nitro double, and argue that eight rounds and a fast reload are better than two.

    So while I understand the rationale for e.g. a 10mm over a .44 or .45 revolver, and somewhat share it, I notice it is contrary to the usual rule of using a bigger gun and not relying on volume of fire.

  20. #80
    Boolit Master
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    10MM no doubt about it.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check