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View Poll Results: Backpacking and 25 yards hunting handgun 45 ACP, 45 Super, 10mm?

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Thread: Backpacking and 25 yards hunting handgun 45 ACP, 45 Super, 10mm?

  1. #41
    Boolit Master

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    As a guy who does tramp around in the bear woods pretty frequently and hasn't been eaten yet, I'll give my 2 cents. I'd suggest you carry whatever you can make repeated fast hits with. I don't know of many handgun rounds that will do the job with just one shot. I carry a Kimber ultra carry 45 when I backpack in the black bear country. I carry a heavy loaded 45LC in Grizzly country. Both are more psychological comfort than anything else. I had to hike 3 miles back to camp in the middle of the night once( in a nasty thunderstorm) in grizzly country after a horse tried to kill me. I had my 45LC and a flashlight. I am under no illusions when it comes to handguns for bear defense. In the highly unlikely even that I ever have to use my 45's to defend myself, I will most likely be shooting the bear OFF me. Pistols just don't kill fast enough. Their main advantage is that you ALWAYS have them with you and they are better than fighting bare handed. We keep 12 gauges in camp and close at hand when camping in grizzly country. We've had them camp and it's not fun. Too many people, I think, have an incorrect scenario in their heads of how a bear encounter would go down. They are ambush predators. They nearly always see you before you see them. It will happen VERY fast and at very close range. You won't have time for much precision shooting. The one guy I know that killed a griz in self defense did it at 3 FEET with a 300 win. Bear landed at his feet. He fired his remaining rounds down through the top of its head. The biggest problem with backpacking is weight. No one wants to haul around an extra 4lbs of hand cannon, so the pistol gets left at home. Whatever you decide on, practice a LOT. Get it out fast and make fast repeated hits on a dinner plate sized target at about 3-4 feet. For handgun hunting, any of the calibers you mention will get it done. I've been intrigued by the 10mm for a long time, but it's an itch I haven't scratched yet... My 45's keep working, so that's good enough for me. Please understand, I am no expert when it comes to bears. I hope I haven't come across as someone trying to act like an expert. I'm just sharing my experiences and opinions, nothing more. Take them for what they are, just freely given and shared words.
    I'll be a nice to you as you'll let me be, or as mean as you make me be.

    Polite society started dying the day it was no longer necessary for rude men to physically defend themselves from the consquences of their actions or words.

  2. #42
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanWalker View Post
    Both are more psychological comfort than anything else.
    Carry what gives you "psychological comfort". I totally agree with 35remington's comments, as 45ACP hardball is a penetrator of man & beast, make no mistake about that! Shot placement rules the day as to instant death, death due to bleed-out or death due to infection - or no death due to misses or minor wounds that heal nicely.

    I'm not a big fan of muzzle energy, as I don't believe a word of it. Just think about this for a nano-second. Energy is scalar, strictly a measure of magnitude without vector or description. Take your 44 magnum cannon - 240 grain cast flying at 1500 fps at the muzzle. Math says it has about 1,200 ft/lbs of "energy". Now lay that muzzle against the side of a 150 pound deer and you should move him roughly 9 feet!! Ever see that happen?

    If you are ever so unfortunate to experience a real bear attack at close quarters - you will need real, and I mean real fast reflexes to bring your firearm to bare on the incoming threat. You may or may not get a shot off - unless you make a CNS strike, you will get knocked to the ground and unless the firearm is tethered to your body - it (the firearm) will go flying to a location probably never to be seen again for the duration of the encounter. You will get chewed on but unless you are real unlucky and suffer a deadly bite or the attack is predatory in nature - you will survive to get a few stiches in your hide.

    The 1911 45 ACP loaded with your reloads consisting of 255 to 265 grain hard cast skipping along at 950 to 1,050 fps will be every bit as deadly as your 44 magnum or 45 Colt loaded with the same bullets going the same velocity. Now, speed the bullet up several hundred feet per second in the 44 magnum/45 Colt and you might get a tad more penetration but penetration is all you'll get over the slower 45 ACP. If you don't reload - Buffalo bore produces a mighty fine 255 grain cast 45 ACP round. The 230 grain Gold Dot will expand to 50 caliber or a tad larger but will maintain 90% or better of it's weight but because it expands, penetration will suffer some - how much? depends again on shot placement.

    When you hear of a LEO or anyone else blasting away at some animal with the 1911 using 230 grain hardball and experiencing minimum effect - just think poor shot placement.

  3. #43
    Boolit Master
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    Of those 3 choices, my decision would be driven more by the gun than the cartridge.
    The Glock chambered in 10mm or 45 ACP would be fairly lightweight for the caliber, have a decent capacity, be very reliable and most of all - be very resistant to hostile weather conditions.

    The 10mm might have a slight edge in power but I'm not convinced that's terribly important.


    If we go to a LW Commander style 1911, we're solidly back in the 45 ACP category all by itself.

    The weight of the pistol becomes a factor if you're backpacking and I'd like to have a different choice in cartridge selection beyond 45 ACP, 45 Super and 10mm.

    If I was worried about bears that might eat me I wouldn't pick a big semi-auto cartridge or even a handgun. That's a job for a pump shotgun with slugs or a .45-70 lever action.

    If my threats were more likely the two legged type, I would want a kit gun. Something that was accurate and light but could also serve as a SD tool.

  4. #44
    Boolit Master
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    What fun stuff!!

    Me? I am a pretty good shot but I have not been in a situation to test my skills under such duress as a close range bear encounter. So, if going into bear country I'd have a 12ga with slugs or a .45-70 lever gun.....and bear spray.

    I have read a lot of stories about encounters and most end up with one factor, using a good penetrating round and good shot placement. Kinda like Bell. He killed most African big game with a 7x57 mauser, frequently at close range (most of the time he also had folks with backup weapons). Perfect shot placement will do that. Yes, a .32 can kill a grizzly, if the shot is placed just right. But, if one is charging you what do you have to shoot at? Are you going to hit it in an eye? Would that even slow it down? How many of you even know where the vulnerable spots are on a charging bear? 250lb bear? What if you run into a 400lb one?

    .45 ACP is one of my favorite self defense cartridges, as is the .357 Mag. Shot deer dead with .357. Would not depend on it for a bear. I am just not that good enough to hit a critical spot. Side shot when hunting, yeah probably ok. Head on charging, no.

    So, of the three listed I'd pick the 10mm with a solid bullet and as flat a point as would feed reliably, but, carry bear spray if you really encounter one.

  5. #45
    Boolit Master
    Suo Gan's Avatar
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    44 magnum is the sane choice. If a bear was on the attack you ain't going to kill him quick enough with a 45 pistol. Those rascals are tough. Don't give me your stories about how they aren't. They are my friend. I used to think they weren't. They can be **** vindictive when they are wounded to boot. Go with enough gun in my opinion. Odds are in your favor that nothing will ever happen even in high bear population areas. You'll have odds in your favor. Go light. Carry a 2" Jack knife. Carve that nasty bear up. Haha
    Lotta people die in bed: Dangerous place to be!

  6. #46
    Boolit Master

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    Of the choices you gave I picked the 10mm for the combination of power and capacity. Myself, I will always choose a revolver.
    Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.

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  7. #47
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougGuy View Post
    There was the same discussion over on another forum about using the .45 ACP to hunt hogs. And I was like wha???? Why would you want to take a 1911 after a hog when there are so many more powerful rounds in a revolver that just doesn't make sense.

    And now for your bear scenario, almost the same questions and answers. The .45 ACP is a GREAT manstopper. END OF STORY!

    .45 Super marginally more powerful than .45 ACP+P, .460 Rowland much more powerful than either of those, this would be better bear and hog medicine but you have to convert the gun to the caliber for it to work right and be safe.

    If you were shooting at a treed bear, and you had clear midsection shots, the .45 ACP will bring him down soon enough. Head on, charging bear, more muscle and bone between the muzzle of your gun and his boiler room, totally different scenario. The same 250gr WFN boolits loaded as hot as you can load them which get full broadsides penetration become much less effective once tables are turned.

    I would not go into bear country armed with a 1911 as my primary sidearm no matter how hot it was loaded. Ruger revolver in .45 Colt, .44 magnum, yes. 1911 no.



    Interested in staying alive? Some good advice here, too bad you are voluntarily confining yourself to being marginally armed in a dangerous situation. I don't say this to be insulting, I am telling you a plain simple fact about killing dangerous things with handguns.
    I agree
    if you are that concerned about being confronted by a bear why would you
    choose to defend yourself in an inadequate fashion when there are so many
    other pistol cals better suited for that confrontation well like a 44 mag,45 colt ect.
    I have a 45 acp but to walk where the wild things are would not be my first choice
    if tooth and claw were on the possibilities menu
    Hit em'hard
    hit em'often

  8. #48
    Boolit Master

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    Folks, he is talking a black not a griz or polar bear. The odds of being charged by a black bear are worse than hitting the powerball.
    Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.

    Bastiat

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    non nobis,
    sed nomini tuo da gloriam

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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonp View Post
    Folks, he is talking a black not a griz or polar bear. The odds of being charged by a black bear are worse than hitting the powerball.
    I'm afraid that's not true. More people are actually attacked by black bears than the others each year. It may be because there are more black bears, but my experience with them is they are unpredictable. Some people think they're cute, but living among them takes all the cuteness right out of the equation....

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  10. #50
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    Here is some interesting documentation on bear attacks in North America:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._North_America

    This only covers the fatal attacks, but not those where the victim was only injured.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  11. #51
    Boolit Master
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    .44 magnum is frequently used for hunting black bears and that is what I would use for bear defense. Might also go with .454 casull.

  12. #52
    Boolit Master
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    Sometimes I carry a .45 S&W 625 in .45acp loaded with cast 230 grain wfn. But if Iam going to real bear country I bring my .44 mag. 310 wfn boolits at 1250 fps

  13. #53
    Boolit Master gtgeorge's Avatar
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    Once upon a time not so long ago I had a 4" .357 and a 5" 45ACP and chose the 45ACP to take to the woods hunting hogs as a backup to the muzzle loader. 230gr XTP worked just fine on charging hogs at around 200 pounds loaded to 950fps. I would not have felt under-gunned had a black bear showed up as I was getting exits on hogs even hard racking in full out run. I was happy to have a semi auto as the first couple rounds didn't always hit the mark as I was firing as soon as leather would be cleared.

  14. #54
    Boolit Master robertbank's Avatar
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    Fred is bang on with his comments on Black Bears. The beggers mostly see you as food.

    I now carry a 12 Gauge Mossberg when off fishing. I may or may not have my GP-100 with me as back up (200 gr RN/180 gr LSWC) now carried in .357mag hard cast lead). Big guns better be short barreled if you intend to ever have to use it for bear protection. Hauling a big heavy gun out of a holster when you only have a second or two to get into action may or may not work for you as well as you think. The shotgun only works when it is in hand and ready.

    Only have had four encounters to date. Three, I was armed and lucky the bears wandered off - closest was about 15 feet. Once I was unarmed and was down wind of the bear. She and her cub just wandered off. Gotta say, the heart was pumping and I really had a sudden wish and urge to be somewhere else.

    Buddy of mine carries a 10MM Glock when he is out with the Rangers. They have the .303Brit as well but it is not always at hand.

    Take Care

    Bob
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff0000]Je suis Charlie

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  15. #55
    Boolit Master pmer's Avatar
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    My premise was if I had either on hand, I voted for the 10mm and would use 200 grain WFN boolits. Check out the Ruger Alaskan, its offers short barreled heavy hitting goodness with usable accuracy. You don't have to search high and low for narrow bands of accuracy and mess with recoil springs, buffers and slide velocity and so on. YMMV but I figured it was a bad idea to push a platform harder than its initial design while trying to expect life saving reliability from it.
    Recent cast boolit hunts:
    buck & doe, Accurate Molds 36-225AG Model 94AE
    Russian Boar Accurate Molds 46-405A Marlin 45-70
    doe 32 Win. Spl. 1920's Winchester model 1894 rifle

  16. #56
    Boolit Mold
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    I said .45acp but that's loaded hot of course. I have one of the Blackhawk .45acp/.45Colt convertibles that I have no doubt would sling a well thought out .45acp bullet plenty hard enough to take out most critters in the 25 yard range regardless of their temper and/or intent. I do have a Glock 21 that I've wanted to pair with a 10mm top and I'm sure it would work in the scenario.

    I don't have any experience or useful knowledge of the .45 Super so I couldn't say where it would stand.

    I've always figured that if I were in that situation I would carry my S&W 629 V-Comp .44 mag just because I prefer the DA just a bit over the SA in the case of bear defense since, from what I've researched, you rarely get more than a second or two before your handgun style/caliber becomes a moot point. That said, my Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt would be second choice and then .45acp. I've just gotten the .45acp dies for my new reloading set up and haven't got to explore the potential of the acp in a strong gun yet but I suspect it can do pretty well.

    I really need to read up on the .45 Super.

  17. #57
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    Several years ago I read about the 45-08 being used in Canada for bear protection.
    Basically they take any 308 sized case, cut it down and inside ream to fit a 200gn SWC. Then load it to 1300fps. The reamed cases have an incredibly strong and thick web area and have a H2O capacity of 24.1gns vs 27gn for a fired WW 45acp case.
    I don't remember everything that was required to convert a 1911 to fire it.

    There is a little bit if info here, from 2013, on the subject that might be worth reading.
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...olit-Load-Data

  18. #58
    Boolit Master
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    I've seen video of Black Bears fighting. The speed, power, and visciousness is stunning to watch. I mean fast and brutal. Good luck with your pistols. If you're unlucky enough to be attacked you'll wish you had a .500 S&W.

  19. #59
    Boolit Master robertbank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lar45 View Post
    Several years ago I read about the 45-08 being used in Canada for bear protection.
    Basically they take any 308 sized case, cut it down and inside ream to fit a 200gn SWC. Then load it to 1300fps. The reamed cases have an incredibly strong and thick web area and have a H2O capacity of 24.1gns vs 27gn for a fired WW 45acp case.
    I don't remember everything that was required to convert a 1911 to fire it.

    There is a little bit if info here, from 2013, on the subject that might be worth reading.
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...olit-Load-Data
    I run a 22 # recoil spring in my Norinco Bush Gun 1911. No buffer is necessary but can be used. Recoil is similar to a .357Mag. Advantage of the auto is you can get six shot off faster than you can with a revolver, the 1911 only weighs 43 oz empty, and reloads if necessary can be done so much faster. I get just over 1300fps using a 200gr LSWC and 10.5gr of Longshot. This cartridge is very popular among some of the bear guides over in Pr. George where the cartridge was developed. I am told some of the fellows over there used the old Para LDA. I just use a Norinco single stack.

    Take Care

    Bob
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff0000]Je suis Charlie

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  20. #60
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    Bob: What is the deal with pistols in Canada? I thought they were outlawed?

    But there are some that are OK?

    or is it Province by Province?

    What gives?

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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