Backpacking and 25 yards hunting handgun 45 ACP, 45 Super, 10mm?

[DougGuy]

There was the same discussion over on another forum about using the .45 ACP to hunt hogs. And I was like wha???? Why would you want to take a 1911 after a hog when there are so many more powerful rounds in a revolver that just doesn't make sense.

And now for your bear scenario, almost the same questions and answers. The .45 ACP is a GREAT manstopper. END OF STORY!

.45 Super marginally more powerful than .45 ACP+P, .460 Rowland much more powerful than either of those, this would be better bear and hog medicine but you have to convert the gun to the caliber for it to work right and be safe.

If you were shooting at a treed bear, and you had clear midsection shots, the .45 ACP will bring him down soon enough. Head on, charging bear, more muscle and bone between the muzzle of your gun and his boiler room, totally different scenario. The same 250gr WFN boolits loaded as hot as you can load them which get full broadsides penetration become much less effective once tables are turned.

I would not go into bear country armed with a 1911 as my primary sidearm no matter how hot it was loaded. Ruger revolver in .45 Colt, .44 magnum, yes. 1911 no.

Not interested in other calibers.

Interested in staying alive? Some good advice here, too bad you are voluntarily confining yourself to being marginally armed in a dangerous situation. I don't say this to be insulting, I am telling you a plain simple fact about killing dangerous things with handguns.

[JHeath]

I once shot a badger in tall grass with a Series 70 Gold Cup and 230 fmj, from about 70 feet. The badger then charged at me. I kept shooting, he slowed at about 20' as I fired the last round and the slide locked back. He collapsed about 10' in front of me. I didn't skin him, but counted at least 4 and probably 5 entrance wounds. This was a 25lb animal at most. There is no magic in the .45 acp. I would not care to face a 400lb bear with one, with any bullet type. The Danish Polar/Greenland services reportedly issue 10mm Sigs as last-ditch defense from polar bears. Personally if concerned with black bears I would look at a Smith M327 TRR8 and a heavy Keith type boolit.

[huntersdog]

There was the same discssion over on another forum about using the .45 ACP to hunt hogs. And I was like wha???? Why would you want to take a 1911 after a hog when there are so many more powerful rounds in a revolver that just doesn't make sense.

And now for your bear scenario, almost the same questions and answers. The .45 ACP is a GREAT manstopper. END OF STORY!

.45 Super marginally more powerful than .45 ACP+P, .460 Rowland much more powerful than either of those, this would be better bear and hog medicine but you have to convert the gun to the caliber for it to work right and be safe.

If you were shooting at a treed bear, and you had clear midsection shots, the .45 ACP will bring him down soon enough. Head on, charging bear, more muscle and bone between the muzzle of your gun and his boiler room, totally different scenario. The same 250gr WFN boolits loaded as hot as you can load them which get full broadsides penetration become much less effective once tables are turned.

I would not go into bear country armed with a 1911 as my primary sidearm no matter how hot it was loaded. Ruger revolver in .45 Colt, .44 magnum, yes. 1911 no.



Interested in staying alive? Some good advice here, too bad you are voluntarily confining yourself to being marginally armed in a dangerous situation. I don't say this to be insulting, I am telling you a plain simple fact about killing dangerous things with handguns.

My buddy just took a 7 SQ AK interior grizzly last night with his 40 S&W XD with Sig hollow points. 3 shots, 1 full penetrating at about 40 yards. He was hunting, not self-defense.

[35remington]

Fred, that's great as a story. But the fact of the matter is that 45 ACP ball regularly out penetrates center fire rifle soft points well known for easily penetrating black bear.

I also find it rather curious that a bear would just stand there, neither attacking effectively nor fleeing while someone reloaded twice (three magazines) to pump twenty plus rounds into said bear. Then I suppose you did an on the scene autopsy to determine all of the wound tracks? Does not seem likely.

Just doesn't pass the smell test as a believable story, both as to penetration claims as to what the 45 actually can do, nor to the actions of the animal involved. Sounds more like a story from someone with an agenda

[W.R.Buchanan]

I am a big fan of the .45 ACP and that is what I voted for. However If you don't already have one and your intended usage is a woods gun then Why not go with a .44 Mag Revolver?

If you look at Arts very cool chart, that he posted above you will see that there is a 400 ft lb. increase in power from the 10 MM to the .41 mag and another 60 to the .44's, and a 750 ft lb increase over a .45 ACP. Even a .44 Special can be loaded up to about 85-90% of a .44 Mag, and as far as reliability is concerned a Revolver can't really malfunction. If you choose a DA revolver the speed of follow up shots is as fast as any Auto Pistol. If you learn how to run a SA revolver it is pretty fast as well.

My point here is if your intended usage is what you state, I think you'd be better of with a Ruger Super Blackhawk in 44 Mag or .45 LC which can exceed the .44 Mag when loaded to higher levels. There are also Ruger Redhawks and S&W Mountain Guns to look at as well.

I am a big fan of auto pistols and have several, however if venturing into the woods, a .44 Revolver would be my gun of choice simply because of the power and reliability which exceed all of the choices you offered originally.

My .02

Randy

[ReloaderFred]

35remington,

I said I didn't see the bear shot, but rather came upon them while they were skinning the front of the bear to find out why the bear just kept coming. They said it just kept walking towards them, just like it wasn't being hit, but it was.

I don't pretend to know what goes on in a bear's mind, but like I said before, I live in bear country and have to deal with them all the time. They are not predictable at all. I'm pretty sure Lincoln isn't overrun with bears, but around here you give them wide berth because they are so unpredictable.

The hikers were simply cutting open the bear's chest area to find out why it didn't stop when they shot it, and most of the rounds were in the front section, not too far into the muscle. A bear has a lot of muscle and bone in it's front section when it's down on all fours and it's a relatively small and moving target. The two rounds that did hit the head just skinned off the side of the skull and evidently kept going into thin air, but they weren't center hits by any means. The .45 shooter said he was backing up as he shot.

You can choose to believe it or not, since I don't really care. I know what they told me and I know what I saw. If you choose to have the last word, it's yours. I'm done.......

And I don't carry a .45 acp when walking in the woods behind my house. I carry either a .41 Magnum or 10mm, since bears aren't up to conversations about which rounds are the most effective on them, especially when they're stomping their front paws and popping their jaws at you..... Been there, done that. Don't want to repeat it........

Fred

[Don Fischer]

For back packing I'd carry my 32 L. For the bear I'd carry a rifle! I doubt there is any handgun more effective or as effective as a 30-30! But I read a lot about this. Most guy's want to know which one to carry on a bear hunt, up to grizzly's. I always want to ask if they get charged, are they gonna throw their rifle o n the ground and grab their handgun? Really?

[buckwheatpaul]

Not trying to tell you to go to a "J" word bullet but I did shoot a 300# sow with a 230 gr. Hydra-Shock standard velocity a couple of years ago.....dropped her in her tracks so.....IMHO you do not need a +p load just a good soft bullet at standard velocity.....I was about 10 yards from her and was using a 4" Kimber......

[Earlwb]

For Bear Country you need some serious firepower. If a bear charges you, you are in serious trouble. You may not even have a chance to do anything. But I carry a BFR .45-70 in bear country. Now it still feels small though. But there are only about 4 other caliber handguns that might out perform it. I think that a .45 ACP would just piss the bear off even more.

Now then maybe those Lehiegh Defense Penetrator rounds with the special Penetrator bullets might work Ok in a .45 ACP. At least the bullet has a better chance of reaching something more important inside a bear. But the bear may still kill you and do die off somewhere else.

[huntersdog]

Interested in staying alive? Some good advice here, too bad you are voluntarily confining yourself to being marginally armed in a dangerous situation. I don't say this to be insulting, I am telling you a plain simple fact about killing dangerous things with handguns.

The .460 Rowland had caught my eye in the last few months. In real life scenarios, how many people can shoot and hit a moving target like a cougar or bear multiply times with a magnum handgun (I couldn't). I've shot the 44 super redhawk in the past and the recoil was pretty harsh to get another round on target quickly, that is why I was looking for something in a semi handgun. In a defense situation in the wild, even with wolves, they never give you the perfect shot like they do in the movies. I've had black bears and wolves, follow me from the side and from behind, that is how they hunt unless you stumble across a mom bear and cubs. I've had a rifle at the time on logging trails, but in the woods, they would have the upper hand.

[huntersdog]

Having seen a moderate sized blackbear (about 250 pounds guesstimated) shot with numerous rounds of .45 acp GI Ball ammo, it wouldn't be my first choice. Most of the rounds were found not far under the skin and penetration was very little. The bear was finished off with a .357 Magnum to the center of the skull.

The only reason the bear was shot with the .45 was the hikers were on the side of a slidehill, traversing across the face of the slide, when they came face to face with a blackbear that refused to retreat and wouldn't let them back down the very narrow trail. When they tried to back up, the bear became more aggressive for whatever reason, and they felt they had to shoot it, or fight it. The lead hiker was the one with the .45, and the trail was just wide enough for one person, so he emptied 3 magazines into the bear, with little visible effect. The second hiker was carrying a .357 Blackhawk, with 158 gr. Magnum SWC loads, and that's what finished the bear off. They peeled back the skin after the encounter to find out why the bear kept coming, and were amazed at how little penetration they got with the .45's. I came up on them at that point, and I was also amazed.

I live in blackbear country, and have encounters with them every summer right behind our house. We can't put out the trash the night before because of them and the raccoons...... I've seen a bear killed with a 9mm, shooting 147 gr. Black Talons, but it took 4 rounds and the bear still went about 150 yards before it bled out.

When I walk the dogs now, I carry either a .41 Magnum or a 10mm, with 200 gr. bullets loaded fairly warm. We've been trapped by a bear within 1/4 mile of our house before, and if you've never seen a large boar bear "posture" back and forth in front of you from about 20 yards, you haven't experienced how small a 9mm can feel in your hand, which is why I carry something bigger now.

Bears can be unpredictable and move really, really fast. The more power the better, but if you don't have to shoot one, that's even better. They don't always give you the choice, though, especially one that has lost it's fear of humans.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Thanks for sharing that! I would rather not shoot any critter, if I didn't have to. In the past, I've walked and followed trails to fishing streams and rivers and have walked upon bear bait stations just along the trails, and seen bear scramble, I was unaware of the bait sites. You have critters running and crashing through the brush and I didn't feel comfortable with my 9mm.

[9.3X62AL]

I share Reloader Fred's opinions on the bear-stopping potential of handgun rounds, and was co-participant (no firing by me) in a couple bear encounters that influence my views. I also share a similar background to Fred's in terms of wound ballistics phenomena.

My vote was for the 10mm. I'm not a raving fan of the caliber, but have some experience with it. A lot of printer's ink and bandwidth has been expended on comparisons to both 357 Magnum and 41 Magnum. It is a mid-point between those two chamberings, probably closer to the 41 than to the 357 when loaded to its full potential (it often isn't). I did away with the caliber due to administrative limitations imposed on its carry by my CCW's authorizing agency. A few weeks ago, most of those restrictions were rescinded--so I need to re-evaluate my position on the 10mm as felon repellent and bear dissuader. The caliber does a number of things pretty darn well for a back-country traveler, and is no slouch for urban vermin.

[35remington]

Given that 45 ACP penetration exceeds that of softpoint rifle rounds that easily pierce a skinny 250 lb black bear, it still don't smell right as a conclusion. Bullets likely were mistaken as to location and penetration.

Much much more more likely what was interpreted as lodging just under the skin on the impact side was actually end of travel on the opposite side of entrance.

Anyone that has an actual working knowledge of 45 ACP ball penetration would not believe only a couple of inches penetration on a body shot on a skinny 250 lb bear. I am one of those guys with such knowledge.

Thus my commentary. Could not help but comment on such a story. The bear would have to be made of well seasoned oak for such a thing to occur. They are nowhere near that dense.

[9.3X62AL]

One of those 2 bear-involved incidents WAS a shooting, just not by me. The officer engaged the bear as it ran at him pretty much full speed across a back yard with a Colt 1911A1 x 45 ACP using 185 grain STHPs. It took all 8 rounds to bring things to a halt, and all 8 rounds connected in the K-zone (jaw to brisket, roughly). Shooter was a former Navy SEAL, and had refilled the mag well and run the slide forward as the bear skidded to a stop a few feet from him. There was no on-scene necropsy, but the hits looked pretty darn good to me, esp. in very subdued 0245 hours lighting.

[35remington]

Can't speak as to hollowpoints and advisability as I would figure otherwise. In Al's example he had to attend the party with what he had. My own preference would be toward a nonexpanding bullet for such things but preferably a 45-70 or a 12 gauge with slugs given my druthers. Apparently hollowpoints that are widely known to penetrate much less than ball sufficed in this instance.

Do keep in mind that the 45 Colt factory load, with actual chronographed velocities very little different than GI ball and only 10 percent more bullet weight and nearly identical bullet shape is considered a good penetrator on live critters....yet somehow nearly identical 45 ACP barely bruises a human sized animal? Just what is it about skin and muscle that makes a small bear near impenetrable? Last I checked both were composed primarily of water.....not iron.

The thing that makes common handgun calibers less effective than rifles isn't penetration. It's considerably less tissue damage. Since critters that can gnaw on you generally take longer to die than you would want if you are under duress best hope you have time to react AND place a telling shot before you get chewed on.

Good luck with that.

I would say the odds of it actually happening resemble that of a lightning strike. We pontificate and debate such things with way more ink than they are worth.

[DerekP Houston]

I don't have a dog in this fight, only seen a black bear once when hiking philmont scout ranch. Personally I have a shoulder hunting holster for my gp100 in 357 and from the chart I'd feel comfortable carrying it. I don't really go for HP much other than show, I'm a bigger fan of heavy lead and heavy charge of powder. In my area that should take care of the hogs or 2 legged critters with ease.

Adrenaline is a weird thing, some guys can take a lickin and keep on tickin, others fall right over at the sight of blood. I'd rather be overgunned than undergunned in such a case.

[GhostHawk]

Voted .45 acp but like others my choice would be .357.

Artful that is a cool chart but I find some of the bullet weights to be a bit interesting.
For example 185 gr for .45 acp but 255 gr for .45lc. There are several others that if they chose a factory ammo with the "standard" for caliber bullet grain weight would be shifted up. Such as the .40SW.

I think where some of those calibers position on that chart is highly dependent on what ammo is chosen.

Still it is a cool chart and ty for posting.

[jlchucker]

Why not a 44 special? After reading the comments here, I notice nobody mentions that caliber. My favorite woods walking handgun is a Ruger new model Blackhawk, 4 3/4 inch barrel. Those 240 gr semi wadcutters seem to hit pretty hard.

[Artful]

My buddy just took a 7 SQ AK interior grizzly last night with his 40 S&W XD with Sig hollow points. 3 shots, 1 full penetrating at about 40 yards. He was hunting, not self-defense.

The largest bear shot in Oregon (last I knew) was shot dead with a 38 spl - with my friends PPC Model 10 S&W - would that have been his choice - NO, but it's what he had - So would I recommend it - NO

[9.3X62AL]

JL--the original poster limited his question to 10mm--45 ACP--or 45 Super. I responded within those parameters.

The more recent "bear encounter" involved my wife and I picking berries in the local mountains in 2002. I had along a Ruger Redhawk in 44 Mag x 5.5" barrel. We never actually laid eyes on the critter, but heard him doing that CHUFF CHUFF bit they do at very close proximity, and could actually smell him. We slowly backed out of the patch, Marie first as I covered her retreat and began backing out toward our thankfully unlocked truck about 40 yards away. No charge, no sighting, and all went well. Still scared the daylights out of both of us. That experience in concert with the 1985 bear incident in Banning caused me to start bringing a rifle with us into bear country. That Redhawk--big ol' boat anchor that it might be--just did not seem like much to stand behind during a Close Encounter Of The Furred Kind. Just my take on the matter. And not some sissy-la-la plastic rat gun, either--30/30 WCF minimum.